LLLT(LOW LEVEL LASER THERAPY) FOR SPINAL CORD REGENERATION

Thank You: Tiger93 and Learning1

A Scenar or Q1000 or both? I really like to believe and hope for true results. I don't want feel that this another dead end hope like the stem cell scam or research/trial that I can't be a part of.

I wonder if anyone with or have used either one of these or both have seen or feeling any progress. So far, if any. Please let me know.

I really like the story and I want to get one or both but I am confuse and afraid of scam. I have three kids and about to loose my house soon, not paying loan to saving money. Something like this to comes along.

Thank You all in advance.

Anthony

if this is for real...why wouldn't SCI rehab places offer it ? People would be flocking there in droves! My son is a C1-2 5years post injury and we would be so thankful if he could just get off of the ventilator!! I'm wondering if this is for real and if anyone of you here have actually used it and actually gotten positive results.

I dont know why there not offering it at rehab places. But if you read all the research that Learning1 has done. LLL is showing results. I am currently using a Thor Laser and and have been so for about a month. I am definately feeling different things, like twitching. And more voluntary movement on my own. All i can say is gotta do all you can. And try anything. GOTTA GO FOR IT. Cant except no for an answer. Thats only my opinion.

It is great to hear the beginning of progress for Tiger93.

What are you trying? How long? Where?

Is it the same basic Thor laser that Dr. Anders was using in her experiments (810nm, 150mw, with the energy apparently spread over about a 3 cu cm area, constant beam [not pulsed])?

My friend with the T11-T12 (complete) is now trying a basic little laser (seems to be the most affordable one out there - 808nm [very close to 810nm, and with the accuracy of the ratings, might even be the same frequency], 3 diode laser, 200mw [split between 3 diodes approx 2/3 inch apart, with each diode apparenlty covering approx 1 cu cm]), and has been trying it for the past week and a half or two weeks. I'll pass on any progrogress he makes.

Why isn't the technology used more and more available? The problem is that the doctors still consider it experimental, if they consider it at all, and no medical insurance, etc, will pay for the treatment. Without a payment base, nobody will invest in the technology. And as an experimental treatment, because of E&O insurance, many are afraid to get into it. And, of course, there is nobody to pay for the research and pay for the studies needed to take it beyond the experimental stage. So if it is up to the medical community, at least in this community, we probably won't see a lot of progress in the near future. That has been the case even with trying to take the research on stem cells from the lab to reality - it isn't proven enough to get government approval here. What isn't well advertised is that most of the medical research out there, especially in North America, is either directly from the drug companies, or from foundations that are supported by or connected with the drug companies.

To the question "is this for real", the answer is yes. Like Tiger93 says, it seems to help. And with the other documented problems it helps with, it should help. How much is a hard question, given the complex nature of most SCI, and the challenge created by the body's defence mechanisms designed to prevent regeneration in the Spinal Cord area, but recent experiments have shown that it is possible if these inhibitors can be overcome. I'll write more on that when I get time.

And which type of laser, or scenar vs laser? That is another topic in itself. I'll see if I can find some time to summarize. I began to try yesterday, but got timed out and lost what I put down. The bottom line, as I read the information, is that a resonating laser (Q1000) probably would help to awaken dormant but still alive neurons but doesn't do the type of energy overload that seems to be a factor behind Dr. Anders' success with the rats (which seem to have had regeneration, or overcoming spinal cord scar tissue, beyond merely stimulating existing neurons). In other situations, with typical scar tissue (i.e. fibroblast based scar tissue), resonating lasers have helped the body reduce scar tissue and make it more congruent, but nothing has been documented yet regarding spinal cord scar tissue (which is apparently not fibroblast based). I'll summarize what seem to be in the limited information when I get a chance. Laser or scenar? Both have had some success, but depends on what you are going for, and it seems that regular scenar, at least the way tried, is focussed more on stimulating to revive existing neurons, and to get the nerves going again. And it can help to reduce swelling and damage immediately after an injury. An advancement from traditional scenar, Cosmodic, seems to go beyond that, and appears to have gottent to regeneration in other types of injuries. The key work with Cosmodic (and even regular Scenar) for any SCI situations has been in Russia, and while it sounds like they have had some success (especially with Cosmodic), nothing is reported other than one case where treatment was immediatly after injury, and there was no paralysis at all despite the injury received.

When I can find some time, I'll pass on some more thoughts, and try to summarize what is out there. There are some basic issues with actual SCI's that makes progress more challenging than the lab experiments. And there are some things that the different electronic medicine tools can do which seem to hold out a lot of hope for SCI improvement, and the limited documetation available seems to support that progress should be possible.

The thing with any of these electronic medicine options is that they actually do not require doctors or therapists to be involved with, although it would be great if they would get on board and include these tools in their treatment options. Provided a few very basic safety procedures are followed (i.e. do not look directly into laser beams, watch your body's response, etc) these are totally safe. Unlike most drugs, there are no negative side effects. They will either work for you, and help, or nothing will happen. And if you go for too long, you just go over to the other side of the bell curve, where you just go back to where you were to begin with (i.e. the benefit that is initially gained may be lost if some of the methods are used for too long and the cells are overloaded with energy), making it so you are back where you started. But even then there may be progress, though it may take a few days off to let the cells stabilize again before the improvement seems to start. For example, Dr. Anders' successful rat experiment went to what most in the laser community would consider extreme energy overloads (i.e. 40 times the recommended maximum for spinal cord treatment), for 2 weeks straight. Then a period of 6 weeks (if I remember correctly) with no laser use before the major results.

Hi Learning1.

The Thor laser that i am using is similiar to Dr. Juanita Anders. Its an 810nm, infra red laser cluster probe. 1000mW, with 5 diodes. I am using it on top of my cervical spine, running it down to the middle of my back. Then i move it back to the top and go down both sides of the spinal cord. I use it for one minute on each point. The cluster cover about a 3 inch diameter. Thats how i have being using it. But every individual could respond different. You gotta be open minded and experment a little. Ill keep you posted

It looks like you have lots of power there, as well as having the power spread out so the number of joules (the energy rating) for any specific point should not be overwhelming. And the steps fit with suggestions I've seen for other methods.

The reported rating of the laser used in the experiment with rats was 810nm, 150 mw, with 50 mw per cu cm (so the laser light was a bit difuse, or spread out). But your laser, with 5 diodes, and a total of 1000 mw (200 mw per diode) would make a lot more sense for a human, and I suspect that if Dr. Anders were to set the specs for a laser to use on a human, that would fit with her experiments. The human spinal column is a lot larger in diameter than that of a rat, so there is a lot more area to treat.

A little brainstorming starting here (and going to the end of tonight's thoughts): With 5 - 200 mw diodes, each diode is putting out 36 joules of energy, and combined it is putting out 180 joules per minute. If it has the same apparent spread that Dr. Anders' laser (reported in the articles) has, it would be 12 joules per cu cm per minute. The total energy she used on the rats (probably focussed on their spinal columns for that time, unless you've heard something different) in her successful experiment was just under 1,600 joules per day for 2 weeks, then she gave a time to heal / recover. So before making an adjustment for the spinal cord size, and the wider area covered by your laser, the combined time over the injured area would be 9 minutes per injury point.

By the way - the 1600 joules per day used in the rat experiment is a lot higher than they suggest treating normal minor spinal cord injuries for = 15 joules for cervical spine, 40 joules for lumbar spine (see: http://www.walt.nu/images/stories/files/dosage-table-780-860nm.pdf).

It sounds like you are approaching it in a very smart way - going by how your body feels.

See how you are doing. One thing I've heard about using lasers (from Dr. Larry Lytle), especially for using the more powerful ones, is that your body responds in a bell curve style. As you initially use the laser, you get more and more benefit. Then improvement gets so it seems to stop, and if you continue to use it, you will seem to either stall or seem to lose the ground you thought you were beginning to gain. What it means if that happens is that your cells have all the energy the can use for a while and they need time to recovery. From an example Dr. Lytle gave, recovery actually started again a little while after stopping use of the laser, as the body had time to begin to process what had been done, and to fix itself. That seems to be what Dr. Anders did with her rat experiment. She used the laser extensively for 2 weeks, then stopped to see if healing would begin to occur. It sounds like the real healing began a little while after the use of the laser stopped, and the big progress was around the 6 week mark after stopping.

It sounds like lasers can do several things. They can reduce swelling and, at least with regular scar tissue, help make it more congruent and easier to pass energy through. They can add energy to the neurons, and help stimulate the neurons, to help wake up dormant ones. And if I am guessing the basis for the recovery of the rats right, it appears that the high laser dosage either affected the spinal cord scar tissue, possibly turning it to embryonic like tissue (which is what could create regeneraton - this is what basic magnetic pulse therapy apparently can do to regular scar tissue - spinal scar tissue is a different kind of cell, but might respond in a similar way to something like the laser stimulation), or it created an inhibitor for the chemicals in the spinal cord which prevent regeneration, or both of these things together.

With these things in mind, depending on how long you are using it, you might be getting progress from awakening dormant cells, or it might be something more. If you seem to stall in your progress, you can either try taking a break and seeing if your body will begin to heal itself, or if you think you have not done the kind of overload that Dr. Anders used in her experiment, you migth try going for longer for a couple weeks, then taking a beak.

The thing I've seen with any of the methods is trying to get some extra stimulation - something to begin tring to work those nerves that you are trying to wake up or get to regenerate. And that fits with what I even heard years ago - nerves and brain cells work because connections are made. And those connectons are made because the body is trying to communicate between points, or has some information to store. That was part of how they used scenars with exercise therapy in the one published study that looked into that in Britain in around 2002, that is what seems to be suggested with the pulsed magnetic therapy studies that got some form of results, and that seeme to be what Dr. Karasev suggests doing if you are trying for improvement using the Cosmodic devices (the leading edge scenar-like Russian units that have apparenlty gotten results, including regeneration, in other situations, and apparenlty have helped SCI situations also, in Russia. So getting stimulation, and concentrating to get the body to try to communicate to those areas, can only help.

Thanks Learning1. Thats some great information. I am going to experment with it. The thing is that the cluster gets extremely hot if i try going longer. I will keep you informed with my progress.

Thinking about it, I suspect that your laser could get a bit warm. The ones I've used are all lower power. My highest power one is a 808nm - 300 mw single diode constant wave laser, and even with the heat dispersion design it does warm up a bit. With that many more diodes, and that much more power, if it has a typical design that didn't do everything they could to disperse the power, I can immagine the heat.

Just so I have it clear for what you are trying, you said you use it for one minute on each point, and tha you are:

- using it on top of your cervical spine

- running it down to the middle of my back

- then move it back to the top and go down both sides of the spinal cord

I'm just trying to picture what you mean by one minute on each point. Are putting it on one point, having it sit there for a minute, then moving it down 3 inches (the head width), then using it another 3 minutes, and moving in the pattern you described? If that is the case, with going down both the middle, then both sides of the spinal cord, you would be using it 3 minutes per point.

Given how the body responds, and the fact that your fracture was at c6-c7, I suspect that you might be best when working on the injury area to focus on the joints between the vertebrae. The laser light should penetrate there better than on the bones, since penetration is better, and as I understand it, the energy spreads out a bit once it gets into the body anyway. Normal effective penetration of the 808 to 810 nm diodes is about an inch and a half or so, but there seems to be a lot of energy loss, since I read the results right, even Dr. Anders' study only had 6% of the light make it to the measuring point she used (which was apparenlty the deepest the spinal cord went), which probably explains the amount of power used on the skin.

I finally deciphered the comments on the mp3 link (discussed in an earlier post) where Dr. David Gawain, a naturopath who actually got into using the lasers when he worked with Dr. Larry Lytle for a while, had a discussion with an exercise physiologist in the Denvery area, Glenn Streeter, and mentioned the success that a beautician in an Amish area of Indiana had with a couple of her clients when she used a Q1000 (a low level resonating laser) on areas that were causing discomfort when she was working on them, they felt something in another part of their bodies where they had not before, and Dr. Gawain's comment was that she then began working "going up and down" their backs, using the higher power lasers that are powered from the Q1000 (the most effecive of these for SCI seems to be the 808nm, 300 mw single diode one that I have). I finally deciphered her name and the town she lives in, and tracked down her phone number. I'm going to try to call her to see if I can get a few more specifics for what she tried, how long, what areas did she treat, and how often, plus what actual progress was made. If I find out anything, I'll pass it along.

To: Bryansmom:

I wish you the best with your son.

I think progress is definitely possible, but each SCI seems to be a bit different, so there are no guarantees. So many factors involved.

The two cases the beautician from Nappanee, Indiana, helped with her lasers, discussed in the links posted earlier (reposted here so you can find easier) involve one C4 and one C-5 injury, not a C1-2, but in theory, if it helps one, it should help another.

http://www.truescenar.com/media/audio/gardenwithin/quadra.mp3, and

http://www.truescenar.com/media/audio/gardenwithin/quadra2.mp3

Even with your son on a respirator, some of the nerves are probably still alive in the area. The challenge is to wake them up and allow the signals to make it through the scar tissue that has probably built up in the area. In other types of injuries, lasers have been shown to reduce scar tissue, and make what is left more contruent (so energy can pass through more easily). Spinal cord scar tissue is somewhat different from regular scar tissue, but even then, in some experiments, when Neurotrophins, and when a bacterial enzyme called chondroitinase ABC were injected, it allowed the neurons to begin repairing the connections. And it sounds like some internal body chemistry may be stimulated to create a situation like this with some of the types of electronic medicine (laser, scenar, and pulsed magnetic therapy).

An interesting British study from 5 years ago was one where pulsed magenetic therapy was use on the back of the scalp to stimulate the cerebral cortex, with the result being that "It may work like physiotherapy but instead of repeating a physical task, the machine activates the surviving nerves to strengthen their connections." The study is at: http://HTTP://WWW.IMPERIAL.AC.UK/COLLEGE.ASP?P=5155, and was done on "incomplete spinal cord injuries" , which they defined as "a type of spinal injury where the spinal cord has not been entirely severed, but the patient has still lost the ability to move or feel properly below the injury point," which is most of the SCI out there, even some of significant injuries.

ThanK You, learning1. I really like to hear about the beautician from Nappanee, Indiana. If you had called her and get more info of the way she had done or how did she get a hold of one of the Q1000.

The Thor is cost more than the Q1000, not only that but it's design for horse. But the The Thor seem to say it has all the bell and whistle from the rep at thor.

Please let me know.

Anthony

Anthony,

I don't know the pricing on the Thor laser. Beware of salesmen and their claims. When they say all the bells and whistles, what do they mean. And how effecive is it really. If here are restrictions in how long you can use it because of heat, that would be good to know.

The Q1000, for SCI treatment, would also need their 808 enhancer (a full laser that plugs into and is powered by the Q1000), since that is actually what is used on the SCI area (or at least was in the rat studies, and seems to have been a key part of the success with the beautician). So that makes the cost of the Q1000 $3,800, plus the 808 at $1,700, for a total of $5,500. Basically everybody I've seen charges full price, no discounts. One place, the one I got mine through, recently had an email out advertising a short term 10% discount (if I remember correctly), but that's all I've seen for discounts.

If I manage to get through to the beautician and get some information from her, I'll post it.

As I understand the story, the beautician actually went to one of Dr.Lytle's early laser light seminars, saw benefit for some of her problems, and was just a very outgoing person, the lasers worked for her, she let her customers try them, they worked for them, they wanted ones for themselves, and pretty soon, she was selling them to her customers.

I forgot to mention - do not be afraid to consider a laser just because it is sold as a horse laser, or Veterinary laser. That approval, or classification, is what that makes it legal for the dealers to sell the laser to you as an individual. Only the Q1000 and its associated enhancers (extra lasers that plug into it) has received FDA approval for advertising for direct sale for use on humans, and that approval was just recently received for treating osteo-arthritis of the wrist. The Q1000 is also approved as a Veterinary laser, and was sold to the public under that FDA approval, until they just recently received permission to advertise osteo-arthritis of the wrist. FDA approval for that one extra clasification cost the company millions of dollars, and took 5 years to get. Typical FDA approval, for human use, is restricted to use by, and sale to, accredited doctors and therapists, and usually those lasers are more expensive because of the cost of getting FDA approval, and the more limited sales market. What horse, or veterinary, laser approval by the FDA means is that it is legal for the distributor to sell to the public, and that it is safe for use on mammals. From the perspective of lasers, humans are just another type of mammal, so the safety is there. The FDA and FTA requirements prevent most of the lasers from being sold with any other advertised purpose. The class of lasers diodes are also part of this, since class 4 lasers (basically 1 watt diodes and higher) are generally not available for sale to the public. That is part of why I'm sure that Tiger's 1000 mw laser is actually 5 - 200 mw laser diodes. If it was 1000 mw diodes, it would be a Class 4 laser, not a Class 3 laser, and there would be more restrictions on sale.

I have not yet been able to get through to the beautician in Nappanee, Indiana, who helped a couple of her customers who had SCI get what sounds like significant improvement. I've left a couple messages on her answering machine, and tried calling at a number of different times, but no success yet. I suspect that she might be on vacation, but won't know until I can talk with her.

For Bryansmom, I think there is clearly hope in this technology. The animal experiments clearly show that there is a physical affect with it, and Christopher Reeve's example of not giving up, where virtually his only stimulation was exercise, getting his first movement 5 year post accident, and still making progress 4 years later, shows there is no end time for potential improvement. And he made his progress without benefit from the advancements available today. As I understand the story, shortly before his death 5 years ago, he was told by the laser researchers in Israel that they were only a year of so from a breakthrough which should be able to help his condition (and he had a C1-2 injury, and was on a respirator).

Is this real? Yes, it clearly seems to be. Whether we are at a point yet or not to get the results, I can give no guarantees, but I think something should be possible, even though it may not yet be as much as will eventually be possible, when techniques, timing, methods, etc, are proven. The examples that I heard second hand (links to the recordings previously posted) seem to indicate that something should be able to be done now by individuals, even before formal progress and formal approval. And Tiger's progress seems to confirm this. As well, the animal experiments show this, as do the the http://www.laserponcture.com and the Israeli laser studies. What works the best simply has not yet been proven, and what methods work for specific types of problems is still to be determined.

A few side points to consider for anybody who is thinking about trying the technologies include:

1. Standard Low Level Lasers are not something that will damage you unless you look into the laser diodes when they are on, when they could injure your eyes because they are a bright light, yet you cannot see it. This means that, according to all the studies done, it is a non-harmful technology. The worst that can happen is that you go to the far side of the bell curve and lose the potential benefit you might have gained if you had stayed within normal usage levels.

2. I suspect that, while a resonating laser may be a good starting point to get the body on stream and moving (as used by the Nappanee beautician), but ultimate progress seems to have been made using an 808 to 810 nm laser, and lots of power / time (more than standard laser treatments of the spinal column). And much of the same initial stimulation seems to be possible with a higher power laser - you just need to watch your timing. I'm not sure what the cost was a commercial laser like the Tiger's Thor lasers, or the experimental one that Dr. Anders used in her animal experiments. but I expect it was more expensive than a Q1000 package, including an 808nm-300mw enhancer (the list for a Q1000 plus 808 is $5,500, but it might be possible to get up to a 10% discount on this pricing). Since nothing is proven yet, I suspect that the most cost effective experimental option would be the little laser from http://www.vetrolaser.com, where you can get 2 - 808 nm - 200 mw lasers (3 diodes with 66 2/3 mw per diode) for $900, or 1 for $525. The key difference would be the amount of time the laser needs to be used for if you are using a single 200 mw laser.

3. Other energy medicine methods may also help. For example, one study from England in 2004 showed that pulsed magnetic therapy on the skull (stimulating the cerebellum), for about an hour a time, for 5 or 6 days in a row, followed by a break to allow the neurons to process the progress, seemed to have made some progress in waking up neurons with the 4 people it was tried on, similar to extensive physiotherapy. If the pulsed magnetic therapy works for an individual, I suspect that even a simple pulser, even something as simple as the little Sota magnetic pulser (which sells for around $300 on the internet) should get the process started. Luminita, from Romania, is trying one, and should be reporting her results.

4. Scenar / laser technology should also help, but with that you would need to watch what it was combined with. It apparently works well with exercise programs, it works well at the same time with resonating laser, and works properly when alternated with use of higher amounts of laser energy.

5. The question is just how things are put together for what is effective. There is a recent post on the Chris Reeve Foundation site which indicates that it may be counter productive to run both extensive pysiotherapy and the experimental spinal injection of the chemical which helps the body reduce spinal cord scarring (or which somehow makes the scarring more permeable), allowing neurons to bridge past the scarring. Basically, it seems that the injection theapy, if done, should have a gap of at least a couple weeks with no activity to allow it to work before the exercise is restarted. If started too soon, it appears to cause the wrong links to be formed, losing the potential progress which might otherwise be made. The same principle, but with a much shorter duration for the loss of benefits, has been noted between normal scenar or cosmodic therapy, and standard higher energy low level laser therapy, requiring a gap in time between the different treatments. That type of gap is apparenlty not needed if a resonating laser is used, probably because the cells are not overloaded (maxed out) with energy.

Thanks again, Learning1.

I discover could order the parts and assemble the laser myself with a single 808nm diode with100mw- 500mw from an electronic shop, but it's not an 810nm and cost almost the same as $525 Vetrolaser with one diode only. But it's not an 810nm with the Q1000.

As a former laser builder for a semiconductor industry, a specific wavelenght is very important for the right result with out defect.

I am very confuse about and I am still saving money for the real deal from the beautician in Nappanee, Indiana. Which I hope is the real deal. In the mean time I will try the 808nm as soon as I order it, fully assemble or not.

Thank you very much and God bless,

Anthony

Echairsitter,

It is great that you know enough to be able to assemble a laser. I'm afraid that my knowledge of electronics is too limited to do much. I can solder a few joints, but that is about it.

What I can tell you about the 808 that is with the QLaser (the one that that plugs into the Q1000) is that it is a constant wave, and when plugged into the Q1000 it basically just becomes a 300 mw - 808 nm - constant wave laser. Nothing really spectatular about it. It is made using a laser diode which could be set as high as 500 mw, but is run at the lower level to avoid potential spikes which would put it over the 500 mw level, making it so it pushes the limits for a type 3B laser, possibly requiring a reclassing as a type 4 laser (and thereby come under a more stringent set of FDA rules, etc). The other things that are unique about it is that, because of the computerized design of the Q1000, it is more portable than the laser systems that plug into the wall, while at the same time there are special regulators built into the Q1000 so it maintains a constant power level even as the battery power declines, and when the 808 plugs in, it benefits from the same constant power. With regular battery operated lasers (like the Vetrolaser), you have to watch your timing and make sure you are working with batteries that are in the top half, or better, of their charge. Otherwise performance, and output, begin to drop. The other reason for running the 500 mw diode at only 300 mw is that it will last virtually forever, and won't burn out as quickly as it would if run at the maximum output. The other features on the 808 is case designed for optimum heat dispersion, so it doesn't get that hot when using it (something that Tiger found with his 1000 mw cluster from Thor), and a special quartz lense taht is .5 cm in diameter, 5 cm long, which the laster beam is run through before the beam is applied. I suspect that just makes it a more focussed beam, so the area covered for the size of the beam is apparently about 1 cu cm (as compared to the area covered per diode for the Vetro laser, at 3 cu cm per diode). Also, the 808 with the QLaser was designed to work well in dental applications (root canals, etc), in additon to some other functions. For some purposes, this extra focus might help, but given the size of the spinal column, I suspect it would not make a big difference.

I had an interesting discussion with someone works with a laser manufacturer, http://www.ipl-systems.com, on the one-medicine forum. The links are at:

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ONE_Medicine/messages/1171;

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ONE_Medicine/messages/1172;

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ONE_Medicine/messages/1173;

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ONE_Medicine/messages/1174, and

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/ONE_Medicine/messages/1175.

His only experience has been with normal laser technology, he has built and experiemented with a number of lasers, just hasn't had any experience with soliton wave technology in lasers. That is what the Q1000 has as a claim to fame, other than some built in frequency combinations which seem to help with some types of problems. As I think I mentioned before, for SCI situations, the key seems to be the 808 or 810 nm signal (and Dr. Lytle, the person behind the the QLaser system, says that with the inaccuracy of the exact wave lengths, an 808 may actually be 810 - and Dr. Anders, in her research, indicates that a range from 790 to 820 nm seems to be the effective range), so not having the Soliton wave probably won't make a big difference. And the comment from the laser manufacturer seems to indicate that it is easy to build a laser.

If you are handy in making things electronic, you might want to look into some of the things on Robert Beck's magnetic pulser. He gave out diagrams and instructions free of charge, and there are free diagrams out there on the internet. One of his comments made in the mid-1990's indicted that the little pluser he designed was as effective for many things as the Diapulse. And the diapulse, from some studies mentioned by Laurence Johnston the online secton linked to in another section, indicates that some human studies from eastern Europe indicated that the Diapulse had some success in waking up dormant neurons. Some of the other mangnetic pluse therapy seems to have had the same success. And if the diapulse could do this, it sounds like it was not complex imbedded frequencies that would be responsible for the progress.