The no1 cause if death= artero no.1 cause= cholesterol no.1 source = meat

What are the main cancer, atherosclerosis and osteoporosis? - diet? Why is our digestive system almost exactly the same as a gorillas although we fear that we need to consume animal products to maintain a healthy balanced diet. These diseases are almost eradicated in herbivores which eat their natural diet, why do we wish to make animal a staple in our diet and continue to deal with these life taking diseases and ruining this earth? Oh no

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@ LewyJackson Ted, oh where do I start
From the basics of how humans evolved.
Which is why you have to consider omega 3 ratio, vitamin D3 status, magnesium levels and circadian rhythm.
Once you understand how little of the omega 3 ALA is coverted to DHA and you learn about the role of DHA in the brain it becomes foolhardy to ignore that knowledge.
Sure primitive cultures are adapted to their local environment but look what happens when they eat a typical western diet and modern lifestyle. It's not a pretty picture.
It's quite easy to test 25(OH)D and see how well you do sourcing your vitamin D requirement from vegetarian sources + sunlight.
Bear in mind the optimum anti inflammatory action of Vit d is around 50~60ng/ml 125~150nmol/l and that's when human milk is vit d replete.
So my advice is that you START by getting your 25(OH)D tested and report back as to how successful your current lifestyle is meeting your vitamin D needs.
Until you demonstrate you understand the basics and can apply that knowledge successfully in practice reasonable people may speculate if you could be a danger to yourself and to other readers.

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Ted, the difference is you actually care about these levels and wild words you are casting out, while I am perfectly healthy, far above physical standard and my brain function is above average everytime tested in academically ways. I have no reason at all to question my vitamin d levels. I think you should more like look at those FACTS I put up in earlier comments and explain to the jury your omega 3 levels and vitamin D levels. Honestly Ted, I have heard more cases of people turning to natural hygiene diets or fasting to cure disease then vegos turning to meat to save their vita d levels.- which I have never heard of. Just because omega 3 is in our bodies does not mean we need to get it extrinsically, how do the cows get it ted? What do you think of fasting?

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Someone who cannot distinguish between the cognitive ability of cows and congitive ability of humans probably isn't a reliable source of dietary information.
Likewise anyone who isn't prepared to subject the validity of their actions and lifestyle choices to independent scrutiny clearly isn't confident they know what they are doing.

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By the way meat intake (in fact any dietary intake) makes very little difference to 25(OH)D status, for which you need UVB exposure to skin, a reasonably high cholesterol level, and preferably live in a rural location away from atmospheric pollution. You also have to know that UVA exposure continues to degrade vitamin d3, so ideally you expose skin normally covered to make vitamin d3, and then cover it up again to protect the newly made D3 from further degradation while it is being absorbed into the body.

It's because most people only expose face/hands and these remain unprotected from UVA degradation that generally people don't actually get as much vitamin d from sunlight as they are led to believe.
Hence the need for a reliable source of Vitamin D3 CHOLECALCIFEROL which is mainly sourced from lanolin from sheeps wool.

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You have lost the plot Ted. My d3 levels are good enough and I will not resort to nudists activities from fear of this, but I do live in a rural area and am a quite frequent weekend surfer. Your big words and terminology may look impressive to the jury but the subject of the matter relies in common facts of CVD and contributing factors. Look at this sight Ted http://www.peta.org/living/vegetarian-living/the-natural-human-diet.aspx?Pa geIndex=5&CommentModerated=true#commentmessage you may learn a thing or three. I'm all for nudists rights just as much as you but this discussion is about CVD's and cancer in relation to eating animals. If you wish I get my levels checked send me the money to pay for the test and I will do it and report back to you sir.

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If you understood the importance of vitamin d you would get your 25(OH)D tested and make some sensible efforts to raise your levels above what is currently regarded as optimal to the natural levels that ensure the anti inflammatory action of vitamin d is maximal.
Vitamin D Levels Predict All-Cause and Cardiovascular Disease Mortality
Optimal 25(OH)D levels substantially lowered all-cause and cardiovascular disease mortality in subjects with the metabolic syndrome.
Most subjects (92%) had suboptimal levels of 25(OH)D (<75 nmol/L=,30ng/ml), with 22.2% being severely deficient (<25nmol/l <10ng/ml).
I expect they all thought the same as you that they didn't have a problem getting sufficient vitamin D.

It certainly isn't meat consumption that creating the drain on vitamin D stores.
It's the inflammation caused by eating grains and consuming omega 6 vegetable oils.

Look at what is actually causing the build up of plaque in arteries.
It certainly isn't meat.
Short-term hyperinsulinemia and hyperglycemia increase myocardial lipid content in normal subjects.
hyperglycemia and hyperinsulinemia induce short-term myocardial lipid accumulation and alterations in myocardial function in normal subjects,
If you want an easier to read version then try this article.
One Cause of Fatty Deposits in the Hearts of Diabetes Patients Settled

If you wanted to really help people lower their risk of heart disease you would be wanting to support the real science based solutions to the problem.
It's grains and sugars that drive high blood glucose levels and cause high levels of insulin.
They also cause the body to excrete magnesium which lead to diabetes incidence as does low vitamin D levels.

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Lewy,

I'm not sure if you have osteoporosis or not, but those of us who do have to pay attention to our Vitamin D levels. This was the first test my doctor ordered when I was diagnosed. I have managed to get my level up to 56, which is helpful when you need to worry about building bone... not to mention many other aspects of health.

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Ted, what your doing is flooding this discussion with some theories that someone has created, I'm talking about facts of life and how meat isn't needed in our diets. When someone is diagnosed with CVD they are told to lower their intake of red meat not take their clothes off more. I agree with you it is healthier to get more air and sunlight, but their are many factors contributing to the fact we are not designed to eat animals it is unnecesary and inefficient to farm them.

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But you don't seem to understand that the problem that is causing heart disease is the carbohydrates that come from grain in combination with the inflammation that is caused by omega 6 seed oils.
Think about all the chronic conditions that come from hyperglycaemia and hyperinsulinemia and all the conditions that involve inflammation.
Your obsession with meat is misguided and is distracting people from the real cause of heart disease.
No one is forcing anyone to eat meat.
It's been part of the human diet for all of human history.
I'm sure you've seen how chimps will hunt monkeys for meat
These aren't theories.
If you followed the links and read the papers you may even understand some of the findings.
Have a look at the graphs here and decide what food is most closely associated with the obesity epidemic?
corn obesity
It sure isn't meat.

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Great to see everyone's perspective. I was a conventional eater (meat-based) for the first 25 years of my life, and I've been vegetarian for 27 years since. My health was chronically poor during the first period (long periods off school with various sicknesses, BAD dental problems etc), but it has been nothing but WONDERFUL for the second. It may be co-incidence - I don't know - but my health today is simply not comparable to what it was during my earlier years.

Ted, I think your 9 years thing bears no relationship with reality. At least not in my case. Quite the opposite. Mind you, I've seen quite a few vegetarians who, in my opinion, have a very unhealthy diet. Not because they don't eat meat, but because they stuff themselves with pasta, soy products, and lots of 'replacement' foods, i.e. the protein supplements, the iron fortified etc etc. On the other hand, I've seen lots more meat eaters who I think have an unhealthy diet. How many of them develop health problems they never had before, 9 years after some arbitrary point in time?

And while I'm at it, your graphs are a crock :-) . Well, not the graphs, but your conclusions. Just because two things rise together over time doesn't mean they are related. You'll find that television sales, as well as the price of gold, went up just like corn consumption did. Many would say stress levels, pollution, use of medicines, and lots of other things did too. That study that you linked to didn't discount the role of excess animal fat in our diet as a contributor to CVD. It didn't even address it.

Don't get me wrong though, Ted. I appreciate what you've written. You've obviously put a lot of thought into this issue and you are knowledgable. But I'm going to have another go. The vitamin D thing is just soooo flavour of the month at present. I'm with Lewy on this. When I became a vegetarian people kept asking "what are you going to do about protein"? Iron? B12? I'll tell you what I do about them. Nothing! For 27 years I've done nothing. And my health has done nothing but improve.

Mind you, I don't stuff myself with pasta (as I mentioned before), or garlic, or tempeh, or anything else. My simple guide when it comes to diet is this: if the food, as nature has prepared it, appeals to me, then I'm probably on a winner. How good is that? 1. I get to eat what I like. 2. I don't have to cook or otherwise alter it. Sure I'm flexible. I don't follow it 100%. I reckon it's not what you do 10% of the time that matters, but what you do 90%. I do a little cooking - very little - and have the odd treat (which I usually pay for in a small way).

Have I missed animal foods? Emotionally - for the first year or so (but this was offset by the increased feeling of well-being). Physiologically - I don't think I've missed anything. In fact, I think I've gained immensely. But Ted, you will probably tell me that I need to test for this and that to see whether I really am missing out on something. To that i will say 2 things.

1. You don't know what you or I need, for a start. You have some ideas about a few selected things that our bodies use, but as far as the whole range of bits and pieces that go on inside the body goes, it's all iceberg and you and I (as well as all the scientists) can only look at the tip. So forget that approach. 2. What are YOU missing out on? So you've had your Vit D checked. As well as the other things that have a commercially available test kit. What about all the other stuff you don't know about?

Why think we can guess how nature does her work, and try to micro-tune it? As I said it's a big iceberg and all we talk about is the tip. Because that's all we know anything about. Even then, we disagree about this and that, how much is needed, what's the average amount etc etc etc. We can't approach life like that. Well, we can but I think it's the wrong approach because we will never know enough to be able to manipulate nature. It's best we try to understand our natural position in nature, and be guided by that.

Look at Vit B12 for example. Everyone talks about b12 and vegetarians. Watch out if you don't eat animals, you might get a deficiency. Well, the vast majority of people who have this deficiency are conventional meat-eaters, and it's predominantly a problem of poor health. But vegetarians are focussed on. Same with Vit D. We synthesise Vit D in our own bodies. If our lifestyle and environment has become so problematic that we are becoming deficient, then why not correct that? Let's find the cause and remove it. Get some sun, get a good healthy diet etc. Put things back into place so we can make it ourselves. Why look to irradiated sheep's wool to supplement it! Because rest assured, if that's broken down, it's not the only thing broken. Things rarely happen in isolation. There'll be lots going wrong that we won't know about, because all we worried about was the Vit D.

In the first period of my life I had numerous dental problems. In one year alone (age 19) I went to a dentist once a week for a year to get 31 fillings and 3 extractions. Since age 25 I've had maybe 5 fillings and one extraction. I didn't test my Vit D, Ted. I have not taken ANY supplements in 27 years. I don't count my calories, don't worry about protein etc. Nothing. Why should I get tested for Vit D? What next?

I'm heartened by Lewy Jackson's input and I sincerely hope he is representative of the younger generation, although I wish he would spell better :-) . I really think learning to live in accord with our biological heritage is more about UN-learning some of the crap we thought we needed to know. And yeah... the planet needs us to stop farming animals.

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I'm heartened by Lewy Jackson's input and I sincerely hope he is representative of the younger generation.
Oh really?

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@ BTG Ted, I think your 9 years thing bears no relationship with reality.
Then prove it.
Find me a survey of people who have "adopted" a Vegetarian lifestyle where the majority of whom are still able to maintain good health on an exclusively vegetarian diet for more than 9 years.
If you think I'm wrong prove it.

I think you will find the truth is that 3 out of 4 people who try being vegetarians eventually go back to eating meat....mainly because their health deteriorates.

For the vast majority of people in Western cultures strict vegetarianism is not possible over the longer term.
In the UK there are lots of so called vegetarians or eat fish and chicken and think they are still veggie I'm not including those as proper vegetarians.

while I'm at it, your graphs are a crock :-) . Well, not the graphs, but your conclusions. Just because two things rise together over time doesn't mean they are related
I'm well aware of that but the fact that the increase in obesity so closely correlates with the increase in GM corn consumption is surely interesting.
If obesity and the heart disease associated with it were associated then if as LewyJackson claims that heart disease is related to meat consumption wouldn't we find that more heart disease was related to more meat consumption?
We have to apply common sense if we have any.

hat study that you linked to didn't discount the role of excess animal fat in our diet as a contributor to CVD. It didn't even address it.
Of course it didn't, because most sensible people have grasped that
There is no significant evidence for concluding that dietary saturated fat is associated with an increased risk of CHD or CVD

The vitamin D thing is just soooo flavour of the month at present........................Why should I get tested for Vit D?
Because low vitamin D status is associated with mild cognitive impairment and that precedes Alzheimer's.
Vitamin D is one of the FAT SOLUBLE vitamins that people who avoid saturated fat are most likely to be deficient in.
We should remember our brains are mainly fat, so fat is required to maintain their function.
What are you afraid of?
Facing up to the truth?

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Ted, eat some raw meat, you offend mother nature when you second hand food. Like the food she provides you isn't good enough? We kill the animals they kill us when we eat them.

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If it's not needed in a healthy diet its a poor habit forming food high in cholesterol which clearly relates to CVD and other problems why eat it? Into to mention it's immoral of us. Fair enough lions can eat it they are designed to and can't eat fruit all the time. But Ted can :-----)

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@ Ted, eat some raw meat, you offend mother nature when you second hand food. Like the food she provides you isn't good enough? We kill the animals they kill us when we eat them.
Simply not true.
Mother nature enabled humans to evolves predators and not PREY.
You insult Mother Nature by not living as your DNA evolved to function best.

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@ If it's not needed in a healthy diet its a poor habit forming food I think you'll find that it's refined carbohydrates that are habit forming and become addictive.

high in cholesterol
Most of us here are getting older so we have to understand that when you get older the more cholesterol you have the longer you live.
each 1-mmol/L increase in total cholesterol was associated with an approximately 12% lower risk of noncardiovascular mortality </i>
So do you want to live longer or die sooner. Your choice but ensuring your brain has cholesterol is the best option if you want to keep your wits about you and live longer.

which clearly relates to CVD
Sometimes it's a good idea not to believe everything you are told. Sometimes when you look at the evidence things are not quite how we are told. You have to learn to think for yourself and examine the evidence very carefully.


and other problems why eat it? Into to mention it's immoral of us. That is your opinion. My opinion is that it is immoral not to look after our health to the best of our ability and failing to learn from our past.

Fair enough lions can eat it they are designed to and can't eat fruit all the time. but we didn't evolve to consume fruit throughout the year. Those with pale skins evolved to live best away from the equator where seasonal changes meant fruit wasn't available throughout the year. We should only eat seasonally available locally grown fresh fruits and vegetables. We should NOT be eating grains or pulses. We should eat as Mother Nature enabled us to evolve. The sooner we get back to that the healthier we will be.

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Oh ok Ted , goodluck with that mate. All your study research links are all studies and human findings, throughout history we've always had trial and error so much, we think we know something and then people start dieting or something gets extinct etc... I don't choose to listen to the constantly changing debates of this does that for you Nd you need more of this for that.... Wtf... I am not a sheep. I DO know that natural living the way nature has provided all our foods we need in a way that hasn't been tampered with is safe and superior. So go hard with your cholesterol meat intaking earth destroying sheepish diet. I like animals, I'm generally smarter then them I know how to not fall prey to them Ted, it's not because I eat them, I allow for their presence and respect their right to live on this earth and defend their territory and their position as natural carnivores. I do not need to eat a cow and support an immoral murderous way of mass producing animals for food whilst destroying the earth to eat something that is not needed in a healthy life and needs to be processed to eat. So , you too Ted, can march STRAIGHT back to your google and look up 'how to save yourself once a vegetarian has roasted you' and all your other vitamin d levels and graphs showing the amount of boats floated compared to the price of fish in china. Eat beef kill reef kill that's the human motto your contributing too. BTG thankful for your support on the flank, it's hard being 20 yes old and defending an argument that most of the people with Internet access are against, and most people with the same Internet acces are genetically deteriorating the human race by their pathetic diet and lifestyle and poor excuse of an attempt to study into what's right and healthy, the answers are bborn into you, long before all the brainwashing and dogma Ted has fallen PREY to. Sorry
Ted. your not the only one.

The world is indebted for all triumphs which have been gained by reason and humanity over error and oppression.

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Ted , you think mother nature is offended at me for not cooking up beasts that I simply do not need in my diet and mass producing them slaughtering them creating lives that are born in factories and live in factories. These animals can feel suffering Ted. They are being eaten by a large group of dominating species who 'have come so far therefore whatever we do is right ... BECAUSE WE JUST DID IT AND WERE ON TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN YEAHHH'. Please think about our natural disasters our disease ridden lifestyles, and how 80% of the world makes an average of 10US$ per day but while a very few select are 'killing it' it's ok... It's not Ted, because humans are in such a poor state we continue to over abuse the resources of this earth and extinction species the same rate as the great dinosaur extinction - just to keep this pathetic system we have controlling the world going for a little longer?? And you think we've done right in our evolutionary movement? No Ted. I tell you , it won't be long and then well be the ones becoming extinct. You think because we've been living like this and progressing towards where we are it's ok!! So back to the meat, you cannot say that because we've done it for thousands of years since we've started using fire, it's ok? And in someway ' how were meant to live' . The world will be saved by people like me, who respect mother nature, we mist crawl back to her and live the life she provides for us naturally, we are not ferocious meat eaters Ted. We eat things that don't have faces. The least you could do to contribute to the healing of our lifeline is go back to every thing you can in life that is as natural as it gets for us ad our biological make up. Whilst still living in thus world and progressing and trying to teach and preach about the 1/3 of our marine life still alive (including reefs) and our 1/3 of the natural tree population left. Ted face it, you and meat just aren't meant to be. No matter how much omega 3 is registered in ms moo after she eats grain or grass.

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I'm not saying just no eating meat will save the world, it will have a healthy contribution to you and the world though - it's the lifestyle, getting back to the roots of our species, before we started second handling everything. stop worrying about certain vitamins that people have in their bodies therefore we need to overdose on these and create a false excuse of why it's ok to keep eating animals. Ted I am no hippy tree hugger, I too make 80000$ per year I'm one of those capitalist pigs, and shower and drive a car, but I'm spreading the word Ted, the bird - for this I forgive myself for little sins of nature I do, I am only human, as much as I want my own tribe in tropical QLD rainforest and organic fruits growing living off mother nature and love - I know this isn't possible. But I will continue to contribute to the growing numbers of naturalists who respect this earth and admit to our flaws of humanity. Goodnight Ted. Ted. Ted. And Ted. Goodluck mate :-------------)

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"But I will continue to contribute to the growing numbers of naturalists who respect this earth and admit to our flaws of humanity"
Not for long, Lewy, not for long.
The only vegan I personally know, is a vegan no longer. Yes, you guess it correctly, emerging health problems have forced him to modify his diet. Yes, he is the one who stood out several years ago when he ate his own "something" at my dinner several years ago.

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