IS More really better?

I read this from an interview by Jillian Michaels with Dr. Angus. The link is:

http://www.everydayhealth.com/cancer/how-to-win-the-war-on-cancer-better-sh oes-fewer-vitamins.aspx?xid=aol_eh-gen_2_20120501_&aolcat=HLT&icid=maing-gr id10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl4%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D158123

And here was the quotes:

Ditch your multivitamin.

“A vitamin is something the body can’t synthesize or create on its own. For example, a mouse has the gene where it can make vitamin C, so vitamin C isn’t a vitamin to a mouse,” Agus explains. It is a vitamin to us, but there are healthier ways to get it — such as in food — than by popping a daily supplement. Research says vitamins show no significant effect on cancer survival and may actually damage your DNA.

“When you give a large dose in a pill, you downregulate the receptor and screw up all the signaling,” Dr. Agus tells Jillian. “The body, for example, needs 10 to 15 units of vitamin E, yet a pill has 400 units. Who said more is better?”

In fact, more can be worse, according to one recent study from the Journal of the American Medical Association that looked at the effects of multivitamins on 39,000 women. “The women who took the multivitamins were actually healthier — [they had] lower BMIs, they had less diabetes going in, and they exercised more,” Agus says. “[But they also had] a 15 percent higher death rate.” Which is not to say vitamins — the nutrients, not the pills — are bad for you. “In food, [they’re] awesome. Eat the real food.”

And on osteoporosis medications and cancer:

Address the problem before it starts.
" Conventional thinking about cancer tells us you can’t attack the disease until you have it, but Agus says conventional thinking is wrong. “I want doctors to treat toward health and not toward disease,” he writes in his book. “We’ve forgotten that curing cancer starts with preventing cancer in the first place.” One great example of how to do this, he tells Jillian, is a study from 2004 in which breast cancer survivors were given either a placebo or a drug that builds bone for osteoporosis. “People said, ‘Why would you do that? These people may have years to live. Why put them on a clinical trial?’” Agus explains. “Well, [because] breast cancer goes to bone. You change the soil, the seed doesn’t grow.”

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Hi Dxag, well, have you heard of "reverse scurvy"? I am not sure yet if this is urban legend or for real but it is when someone gets scurvy after cutting down on megadoses of vitamin C......

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Dxaguru,

This really interests me: “When you give a large dose in a pill, you downregulate the receptor and screw up all the signaling,” Dr. Agus tells Jillian. “The body, for example, needs 10 to 15 units of vitamin E, yet a pill has 400 units. Who said more is better?”

I've been wondering about the effects of what we add or do to our bodies for some time. I believe the body has an "intelligence' of its own.

Let me go a bit laterally here. I've noticed over the years that when you use a shampoo on your hair on a very regular basis, the hair gets oily more regularly. When you reduce the amount of times you do this, the body responds by eventually reducing the oiliness of the hair.

Another example. When we take pain killers, the body adjusts to these and to achieve the same effect we need to take more. I know there is a parallel with other medictions too.

Back to supplements and down regulating receptors. The body constantly makes its adjustments in its endeavour to keep a balanced functioning system. What happens when we artificially dose up with supplements for a long period, Is the body making long term and more permanent adjustments to these. I wonder if we are damaging our receptors when we try to provide the body with its needs artificially. How many times do we misjudge diet/supplement balance?

What the body doesn't need it gets rid of or diminishes. Look at the bone density of astronauts in space, the muscular strength of bedridden folk. These are diminished through lack of use. The body makes its adjustment. You might say that the body eliminates the uneeded excess of supplements and protects itself this way but can it always do this?

I doubt there are answers to these questions out there but I wanted to share these thoughts and wonder if anyone else thinks about this sort of thing.

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You can't fool Mother Nature? It does make you wonder about strontium too. If it was so much better to build bones with strontium than with calcium, why aren't our bones mostly strontium?

Osteoporosis, unless due to some other disorder, is a disease of aging. It is the human version of the salmon that die immediately after spawning. Genes that cannot be eliminated through natural selection because they do not prevent reproduction and they have already been passed onto the next generation before they effect us. Osteoporosis and cancer may even be nature's way of insuring that we eventually die from something before we consume all the resources needed by our progeny to continue the species.

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I have never been so confused in my entire life, as to what I should or shouldn't do - sigh........

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Vitamins can be helpful but that doesn't mean more is better. In large doses vitamins act like drugs not nutrients. The body not only tries to eliminate excess but too much of an overload can cause liver damage.

I agree Dexag. re. strontium. I cannot get my head around the 680 mg doses when nature provides so little strontium.

Found this quote going back to the ancient Greeks by the physician Hippocrates - "Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food". Some truth in this even today.

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I came across this yesterday on Your Bones by Lara Pizzarno:

Lara-
I just read this post on this site Re: Vitamin K and wonder what you think.

"After having been diagnosed with osteoporosis my dr. wanted me to go with Reclast. After doing my research mostly on this site, I decided against it. I chose the supplement and vitamin, exercise and diet route. That was a few weeks ago. I started taking more calcium and D plus magnesium and MK-7. I have no other health issues, am a 68 year old female and active.

Last week, I experienced numbness in my left hand and arm up to my elbow. A few minutes later my jaw and gums became numb and then the left side of my tongue. It was so scary that I called the dr's office and was advised to go to the ER. I did and, after many tests, was diagnosed as having a mini-stroke. I spent the night in the hospital for observation. The numbness went away after about 2 hours and I have no aftereffects. When the hospitalist asked about all my meds I mentioned the Vit.K. He looked like he could not believe what I had just told him and advised me that K is given as an antedote for blood thinners because it makes the blood thicken. The neurologist reacted the same way when I told him. So did my family dr. when I saw her today."

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I wish Lara Pizzorno would address this post and my concerns regarding too much vitamin K and D3.

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Dexaguru: How old are you? I haven't checked your profile, but I bet you are young and do not suffer from cancer or osteoporosis....

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Guria, you are in Canada right? Health Canada has placed restrictions on Vitamin K2 here- the highest dose is 100 or 120 mcg pill, so to get the sort of dose Lara talks about, I think you would have to down a whole bottle. Is Health Canada being overly cautious? I don't know but I am going to go with them on this one.


This is her thread- she answers questions here:

http://www.inspire.com/groups/national-osteoporosis-foundation/discussion/p art-2-your-bones-by-lara-pizzorno-and-dr-jonathan-v-wright/

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Yes, I am in Canada but I bought AlgaeCal Plus from the US. It contains 50 mcg Vit K per pill and I need to take 4 of them daily. That makes it 200 mcg daily...I wish I knew it before I spent so much money on supplements...

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I think 200 mcg is fine. Lots of people say to take about ten times more than that.

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Guria, It is 100mcg not 200mcg, you are fine.

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this link discusses an opposing view to the JAMA study concluding that women who take a multi-vitamin have a higher death rate:

http://www.anh-usa.org/shame-on-ama-archives-of-internal-medicine/

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Here is another critical view of the jama vitamin study that was done as part of its 'less is more' series:

http://www.drugstorenews.com/article/crn-challenges-jama-study-linking-mult ivites-and-death

In direct contradiction to this 2011 Jama vitamin study, Jama published a study in 2002 stating vitamins prevent chronic diseases:

http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/287/23/3127.full

In this study Jama states 'We recommend that all adults take one multivitamin daily. This practice is justified mainly by the known and suspected benefits of supplemental folate and vitamins B12, B6, and D in preventing cardiovascular disease, cancer, and osteoporosis and because multivitamins at that dose are safe and inexpensive.'

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Hi Dxaguru and friends,

I am rather conservative and believe that taking less is better. For example, I am taking 1 mg to 5 mg of Mk4 per day and found it to be beneficial. I eat natto for Mk7. When it's inconvenient for natto, I take 45 mcg of Mk7 (If I take LEF's Super K, I skip every-other day) to avoid build-up (Mk4 stays in our blood stream for a few hours, while Mk7 stays for 3.5 days).

It is always better to get one's vitamins from food then get them in processed, concentrated pill form.

Most of you already know; but, I still would still like to clarify the 2 forms of Vit. K2 dosages.

> > > Mk4 usually comes in milligrams.

> > > Mk7 usually comes in micrograms.

Since 1 milligrams is equal to 1,000 micrograms (i.e. 1 mg = 1000 mcg), the dosages of the supplements help us take Mk4 at a much larger amount then Mk7.

Regarding Mk4, there are many studies showing good results for bone quality improvements (not necessarily density). Some of the studies used 15 mg, 3 times per day. However, results from a recent study “suggest that supplementation with 1.5 mg/d MK-4 accelerated the degree of OC gamma-carboxylation" ref. J Nutr Sci Vitaminol, 2009.

In case you’re interested in some brands on the market . . .

The Throne liquid Vit. K2, Mk4, provides 1 mg per drop. Carlson’s Menatetrenone (Mk4), are in 5 mg capsules. There are Mk4 supplements at 15 milligram per capsule.

Sometimes, Mk4 comes in smaller amount (as little as 100 mcg), when combined with another vitamin. For example, Nature's Plus' Vitamin D with K2 only has 100 mcg of Mk4.

Life Extension has an excellent Vit. K supplement called Super K, which has 1000 mcg of Mk4 and 100 mcg of Mk7 plus some K1. Vitacost also has a similar one.

Again, most of the supplements for Mk7 comes in micrograms, e.g. in 45 mcg, or 90 mcg, or 100 mcg. Rainbow Light Osteo-Build's Vitamin K2 is MK7 at 45 mcg. If you take 4 tablets per day, you would get 45 mcg of Mk7. Apparently (from the recent discussions), AlgaeCal contains 100 mcg, from 4 pills.

Best regards,

> Sylvia < < < < <

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The AlgaeCal Plus comes in 50 mcg per 2 capsules, so I am taking a total of 100 mcg per day of MK-7, which is supposed to be ok.

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A typical multivitamin has 50-100% of the RDA of the vitamins in it. They are not high dose.
Now we are being told we are more likely to die early merely because we've been taking a multi vit. And this is even so if we are otherwise very healthy? Its absurd. That study on women taking multivitamins Dxgru posted was poorly conducted and is junk. So many of us are on this site because we've been wrongly told we are about to break a hip, that our spine is ready to crumble, that we have bones of a 90 year old. Why it is so popular to try to incite fear and paranoia in woman is what needs to by studied.

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