What were your copper levels?

I most likely do not have wilson's disease. But what I need to know is how high is high, and how low is low?

I have "high" serum (blood) copper and "low" urine copper.

This pattern does not fit in the pigeon hole of copper toxicity or wilson's disease from what I have read.

Lots of problems. Not really asking for a diagnosis or similar life stories. I've been researching for 8 months and I am really, really annoyed at the world at large.

My question is this :

When you were diagnosed, and at other times in your life, what were your levels of copper / ceuroloplasmin / zinc?

Also does Wilson's Disease create a prolonged high CRP / ESR (5 years, I can't go back further in medical history as I have none) ?

Thankyou in advance, sorry for appearing curt,

-Amanda

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Hi Amanda,
Many sources say a serum copper below 80 ug/dl is indicative of WD.
Gitlin says typical findings are those below 100 ug/dl , however.
Gitlin also says that urinary copper of greater than 100 ug in the course of 24 hours (/24hrs) are typical findings.
(http://www.gastrojournal.org/article/S0016-5085(03)01512-9/preview)
Of course, more normal findings don't necessarily exclude the disease, as it is a disease that develops gradually from near normal state at birth, and at varying rates (therefore age is not completely relevant).
So, what does "low" mean in this case?
What does "high" mean?
If your serum is above the normal range, or very high in the normal range, typically, you would be assumed not to have the disease, as is the case, if your urine copper were extremely low (however, if you are practicing a low copper diet, etc. this could be thrown off from my understanding).
Perhaps, more importantly, why do you worry that you may have this disease? - You give no indication of any reasons to believe you have this disease besides being "really annoyed at the world at large" which sounds typical of the psych. symptoms that often precede neurological onset, or hepatic failure.
I understand that the world can be a frustrating place, does you frustration have to do with WD somehow?

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I do not believe I have wilson's. I have been told many times by many doctors that my copper levels are the reverse of a wilson's diagnosis.

But I thought to myself, which group of people would know about copper levels?

I know the ranges. We measure in moles in Australia. It's not hard to convert with a little basic chemistry knowledge... or google.

The question I asked was :

"When you were diagnosed, and at other times in your life, what were your levels of copper / ceuroloplasmin / zinc?"

The keyword here is "you". I have read many websites, I know what it's supposed to be diagnosed as. But real life is not usually a textbook case.

As for high/low,

for example

Bilirubin is meant to be between 2 - 20 micro moles per litre, I have had a one off value of 17, I'm usually around 8. However had it been over 20 as in 21 or even 41 I would not have worried. Because when my Dad had hepatitis his was over 1000. When the shit hits the fan that is how high bilirubin can get. I'm just trying to figure out the same for copper.

When the shit hits the fan, how high is high, how low is low?

A lot of the primal instincts of wanting to kill / "kiss" everyone you meet exists in instances of copper toxicity as well as wilson's, the difference being my copper is in the blood whereas people with wilson's have it in their cells. Which is why their serum copper is usually low.

Trust me, I have been sick for over 7 months now, I've had a lot of time to think and read and read and think and read some more.

This is all I want to know right now :

"When you were diagnosed, and at other times in your life, what were your levels of copper / ceuroloplasmin / zinc?"

-Mandy

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My ceruloplasmin was normal and so was my copper but I had tremors (neurological symptom) and also balance and writing problems. Were you tested for WD - definite diagnosis is by either a liver biopsy (if your liver enzymes are elevated) or a slit lamp examination to see if you have KF rings. This would be for neurological symptoms. Who told you that high blood copper is opposite of WD. That is not true.

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I was told this by several qualified doctors and neurologists in both America and Australia, and I have also read many articles on the web that agree with them.

I have never come across a case study where the serum copper was high and the urine copper was low in WD. WD presents in textbooks in exactly the opposite way.

I suggest WD to doctors and they laugh at me, and throw me out of their office once my 15 minutes is up and charge me $300 AUD.

Have you always had normal copper levels in every test you have had?

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I have had serum copper of 83 or so ug/dl.
My urine copper was undetectably low each time a test was administered. My best explanation for this is that I was treating myself, besides the earlier diagnosis made possible by my more sensitive diagnostic procedure consisting of evaluation and comparison of symptoms and Cu consumption.
But, it seems we are in similar dilemmas to some extent - not having been diagnosed, except that I am sure I have Wilson's, and you are not sure that you have it, you are merely suggesting it at this point ( I was there for a long time before I became, sure, testing my theory almost every time a doctor remained unconcerned, meaning more copper, more damage, more symptoms which I bore witness to).
I can tell you this: 75mg of zinc taken with protein away from carbs a day can help in addition to a low copper diet if you have WD. They publish a lot of symptoms and diagnostic criteria, but I found that I needed to join an email list to find out about zinc treatment guidelines...
You did not say whether or not you were treating the disease, since you suspect it, with low copper diet, etc.

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Oh, we're treating the high serum copper. My Dad and I were following our GP's instructions to the letter.... until I started getting worse.

I was taking a supplement with Zinc picolinate in it.

That particular compound is rather virulent. With two single bonds it is a great chelating agent.

Trouble is it's too good.

Zinc is quite low down on the electrochemical scale. So before the cation would attach to Copper, it would attach to everything higher on the electrochemical scale. I am now low in Molybdenum, Manganese, Calcium, Iron and others I probably don't know about. These are elements I was already low in, and I am now even lower.

So we have retreated, assessed, and are preparing an attack on the copper from a different direction.

Vitamin C (C6H8O6) is needed to be able to absorb the Iron. It does not stick around in the body. You cannot overdose on it. Vitamin C in excess can cause copper deficiency and in reverse copper excess can cause vitamin C deficiency and.... scurvy. Arh ya scurvy landlubber.

Our new plan of attack involves

1) mega dosing on Vitamin C for one week alone. Morning and night.

2) Continuing on the Vitamin C morning and night but also adding into B group vitamins a little bit of iron and a little bit of manganese and a little bit of zinc.

3) Then we'll add in molybdenum drops and other trace element supplements.

4) And much later high dose iron supplements.

I'm currently on stage 2 of our plan. I think the high copper has thrown out my electrolyte balance as well, with me shaking/vibrating, friends have noted the similarity to when you exercise and need to re-hydrate with an electrolyte drink, eg: marathon runners. So I'm also trying to eat salty foods when I can (my parents eat very healthily) and drink powerade when I feel really bad. I've been trying to drink as much water as I can, but I think I need to be drinking things other than plain water, so powerade occasionally, but also milk and juice. Variety is the spice of life.

The high copper interferes with the absorption of iron, if I take iron tablets before my body is ready to absorb it then it will just pass right through and give me black stools. So I need to set the foundations, before I can start building my skyscraper of good health.

My iron has always been low (10 years), bordering on anaemia, taking iron tablets does nothing to change my values.

I'm still eating chocolate unfortunately. Copper is addictive and I can't seem to give it up very easily. I did give it up about 3 years ago for a whole year while on a strict diet to lose 15kgs, and I felt great. When I started eating it again I felt sick. Now I'm addicted to it again. I try to limit my intake, and try to not eat chocolate in blocks by itself but rather as a coating.

Also something is askew with my hormones, and taking the contraceptive pill allows me to function as a normal human being between the hours of 10am - 11pm, I take it at 7:30am. The normal hormonal cycle balances in a precarious situation with copper, more specifically progesterone with copper. Without REAL progesterone the copper never comes back into line. The pill contains synthetic progesterone. Sadly it's not profitable or patentable to include natural progesterone (cannot patent a naturally occuring substance). So copper issues like mine are supposedly quite common since so many women use the pill.

So that's my plan.

-Mandy

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By comparison:

pedrichards, you say your copper is 13.03 umol/L or 83 ug/dl.

The "safe" levels are :
12 - 22 umol/L
or
76 - 140 ug/dl

Your levels are supposedly in the low range of normal.

Now to compare. My levels are

23.2 umol/L October 2009 (148 ug/dl)
49.2 umol/L January 2010 (313 ug/dl)
43 umol/L February 2010 (274 ug/dl)
46.1 and 45 umol/L March 2010 (294 and 287 ug/dl)

Almost four times your levels.

Now do you understand why my doctors and I are saying I do not have Wilson's? It is completely the opposite to a Wilson's diagnosis. I just thought people in this forum would maybe have experienced high levels in their blood during chelation or at other times...

And I wanted to know how high is high?

I guess it was a silly idea, I'll just go back to using google.

-Mandy

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Mandy,
I do not know what to tell you.
Do you feel unwell after eating copper, or better after avoiding it?
Also, your copper levels alone are less valuable than those analyzed in conjunction with ceruloplasmin.
I know that I've read of people with ceruloplasmin levels over 30 mg/dl, when the cut-off for being low is 20 - according to Brewer I believe, in his book.
To have a slightly high free copper, your ceruloplasmin does not to be that low.
It is supposedly the free copper, that is indicative of the level of damage that is happening.
I believe it is common for women, and people earlier in the progression of the disease to have high serum copper, maybe as high as yours.
Again, I would go back to how you feel after eating something with copper, and how you feel treating with zinc and on a low copper diet - This is really the most important thing - to determine whether or not the treatment for Wilson's will help, not sorting through theories and practices of the medical establishment - take them for what they are and build on these theories in other words, even if the doctors are reluctant...
What were your ceruloplasmin levels?
Was urine copper undetectable?
Were you attempting to treat the disease?
You don't have to answer these questions publically, if you do not want to, but at least, consider them.

regards,
Peter

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Here is my copper together with the caeurloplasmin, I found out about the importance after the first copper test, but I never figured out -why- it was needed, the ranges (in brackets) vary for each lab, those values that are indented are in the units you have used for easy comparison.

January 2010
0.96 g/L (0.25 - 0.63) - caeurloplasmin
___96 mg/dL (25 - 63) - caeurloplasmin
49.2 µmol/L (12 - 22) - copper
___313 µg/dL (76 - 140) - copper

February 2010
1.01 g/L (0.25 - 0.63) - caeurloplasmin
___101 mg/dL (25 - 63) - caeurloplasmin
43 µmol/L (12 - 22) - copper
___274 µg/dL (76 - 140) - copper

March 2010
0.62 g/L (0.24 - 0.58) - caeurloplasmin
___62 mg/dL (24 - 58) - caeurloplasmin
46.1 µmol/L (12 - 22) - copper
___294 µg/dL (76 - 140) - copper

March 2010
0.614 g/L (0.20 - 0.60) - caeurloplasmin
___61.4 mg/dL (20 - 60) - caeurloplasmin
45 µmol/L (12 - 22) - copper
___287 µg/dL (76 - 140) - copper

So using the formula:

Free copper (µmol/L) = Total Cu (µmol/L) - n(µmol/mg) x caeurloplasmin (mg/L)
using 0.0472 µmol/mg for n

Date ______Total Cu___Caeurloplasmin___Free Copper
__________(µmol/L)___(mg/L)___________(µmol/L)

Jan, 2010__49.2_______960_____________3.888
Feb, 2010__43________1010____________-4.672
Mar, 2010__46.1_______620____________16.836
Mar, 2010__45________614_____________16.019

So I had the normal amount of free copper... then I had negative free copper, now I have a lot of free copper???

We are currently unable to treat the disease.... because we do not know what is going on. We do not have a diagnosis. But we've been trying to treat the symptoms since December. We started off trying to treat the high copper back in October when it was half what it is now, but then my medications were taken away from me in the psychiatric hospital that I put myself in (to give my parents a break and they were the only people who would take me, and if my psych was so adament that it was all in my head I thought I should give her a chance to prove her abilities to fix me, she failed)

The urine copper is a bit harder to convert into something useable.

112.41 mg/dL (23.00 - 205.00) - Urine creatinine
4.1 µg/g of creatinine (4.0 - 11.4) - Copper

Thanks,

-Mandy

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Amanda,

First, regarding your last post, when I calculate "free" copper in U.S. measures using your March tests, I get 102.8 vs. a normal of less than 15. (My calculation is: 287 - 3*61.4 = 102.8 = really, really high. No wonder you are having problems.)

Second, you seem like a smart girl. You know chocolate is high in copper, you know you felt better when you went off chocolate, you know the answer is to get off chocolate! Just do it. Copper is stimulating but it is not crack cocaine. And, you know the pill also enhances copper production. Find another solution.

I agree with you that you probably don't have Wilson's but that does not mean you have not acquired copper toxicity from other sources. (Although there are dozens if not hundreds of Wilson's mutations so it is still a possibility.) Research "copper toxicity" and you will get some good information. Copper toxicity can lead to severe psychiatric issues as may be the case with my sister which is how I've come to learn about all this. Once you do this research, you can review your plans for your vitamin and supplements regimen. But you need to re-think zinc. It is the foundation for most treatments of excess copper.

Yes, you have a significant issue that is no doubt very difficult for you and your family. But you also have a very good chance to resolve it favorably if you just do what you know you must.

Peace.

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I agree. The Contraceptive pill and chocolate is a bad idea. But for some reason it helps me function.

(2 minutes)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcNXcKMPGTU

(10 minutes)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1d1HIh7yoE

I think my heart will give out long before any of these neurological effects run their course. It usually sits around 138, and I doubt I can sustain that for much longer.

I have no idea why the OCP would stop these "episodes" but for some reason it does, but it's losing effieciency. Wearing compression bandages helps to prevent or lessen the severity of episodes and also the shaking. And changes in pressure also brings on episodes and makes my blood vessels explode.

From my research natural progesterone and copper from a balance, when one is high the other is low. During menses the copper goes steadily up as the progesterone is low, and after ovulation as the progesterone increases the copper decreases. Without the natural progesterone the copper does not disappear from the system. The OCP contains synthetic progesterone that does not mimic this function of progesterone, so without something to bring the copper down it continues to increase.

I now need to find out what -exactly- links progesterone to copper, and also the OCP to caeurloplasmin production.

I've been researching both sides of the fence. But can copper toxicity cause the problems I am having?

Copper toxicity is supposedly quite common, if copper toxicity could cause symptoms like my "episodes" then why havn't we heard more about it? Why arn't more people collapsing in the gutter outside hospitals?

I just need to put two and two together, but I'm having trouble thinking as clear as I once did and I can't really remember anything new. Any new pin numbers or passwords I cannot remember since a few months before all this began.

I just need someone in the know to have a chat to and discuss my theories and to put forth new ones.

-Mandy

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Amanda,

You looked into Wilson's Disease because of your excessive copper levels. Wilson's Disease is a genetic problem affecting the ceruloplasmin that prevents it from binding copper appropriately. The result is excess "free" copper running throughout your organs. WD leads to a wide variety of serious, even fatal medical issues. You may not have WD but you do have excessive free copper - that's a fact. How you got it is unclear.

Some physicians believe stress and anxiety can sap the adrenal functions which, in turn, lowers ceruloplasmin. If you look at your January/February ceruloplasmin vs. March, your scores did decline substantially even though they were still well above normal. The decline in ceruloplasmin is what caused the substantial increase in free copper.

I'm not sure why you can't find a doctor who can guide you through this. You may have other things going on that may show up in different tests. That said, you have dangerously high levels of free copper. For some reason, people don't take the matter of copper toxicity very seriously yet if it were lead poisoning or mercury toxicity, everyone would understand the severity of that. Copper toxicity - in whatever way it is caused - is serious.

I don't want you to take my few comments over the Internet as a treatment plan- you need a doctor. But I would offer some ideas:

1) reduce your copper intake by limiting your food intake of high copper sources like chocolate. Water can also have a lot of copper. (Check if your water pipese have blue stains around them. That is a sign of high copper.) You may want to take bottled water. Shellfish is also very high in copper as is liver.

2) Eliminate the pill. Interuterine devices can also contain copper.

3) Take zinc. A prescription version of zinc is Galzin which is a little easier to digest. This will keep you from absorbing copper and help eliminate it.

4) Ease you stress. Relax, meditate, get a massage. Chill. Eliminating stress will help restore your adrenal functions which will help increase your ceruloplasmin which will lower your free copper.

5) It takes time. Copper elimination takes months and even longer in certain cases. Know that you are on the right track by the incremental improvements you see. It takes time.

6) Find local support. Finding a support group you can connect with personally will help you to work through your emotional ups and downs. Prayer is good, too.

Best wishes.

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Hi, Amanda-

Your symptoms (neurological and copper urine/blood findings) mimic mine. I have several additional questions (that admittedly may sound 'off-the-beaten-trail'), but here goes:

1.) Do you have any 'gastrointestinal' symptoms (gut distention, gas, burping, diarrhea, etc)?;

2.) Do you consume or have you in the past eaten 'sugar-free' candies/gums/foods? (specifically, looking for items that contain sugar alcohols: sorbitol, xylitol, mannitol, polysorbates, etc.);

3.) Do you take (or have you in the past) taken any supplements that are 'dissolvables'? (again, anything with a sugar alcohol in it).

4.) Any 'welts' or skin abnormalities?;

5.) Recurrent UTI's?;

6.) any recurrent exacerbation of symptoms linked to particular times in your menstrual cycle?

Am hopeful you are feeling 'on-the-mend' and that you are having some success in your current 'protocol'.

Warm regards-
kps

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I'll try to answer everything, if i refer back in order i should be ok, i forget everything short term lately, making long term memories is very hard. I also mix up left and right, back and front, up and down, i picked up a nail gun and held it backwards with absolute conviction i was holding it the right way, like every other time i had used it. I was about to end up stapling my hand when my Dad yelled out. I also mislabelled every screw when i tore down my mac which meant rechecking every screw, left and right, up and down, when reassembling.

So,

1) i developed lactose intoleranace about 5 or 6 years ago, two years ago (when going off the pill) i began being able to have milkshakes and nachos and yogurt, now i am having trouble again, could be the lactose, not too sure, but i really love cheese. Apparently both bread and dairy contain a type of morphine.

2) No idea about this

3) Still no idea

4) my skin comes off when i have masking tape pulled off it, i have small bumps on my abdomen, my big toenails are grey now, my fingers are heading that way, my skin is now translucent, which makes taking blood and inserting canulas easy as you can see every vein and artery in my entire body.

5) Apparently i have high yeast levels in my faeces. I asked my Dad if i smelled, and he said sometimes, so it's probably candida oozing from every cell in my body. I have had uti's in the past, over 6 years ago, but nothing recent

6) HELL YEAH!!! i noticed the link when in a mental hospital, asked for the ocp and within a week i was walking laps around the -outside- of the hospital in 30+
degree heat. My testosterone had become out of whack off the ocp for two years, back on it, it dropped to nothing, the dark hair growth on my legs faded back to blone, my snail trail retreated.

Rubbing on progesterone cream would give me a bit of umph in situations known to trigger an episode. it's a neurosteroid and is meant to balance copper.

I just completed a hormone assay over a month cycle and i have no E2 estradiol, and my progesterone is 10 times what it should be. but flucuates in a wave during my cycle. I don't know where it's peaking, beacuse i just guessed as i am skipping the sugar pills.

Yeah, protocols don't really work, if you can't remember to do certain things like take your vitamins.

I am about to give up. I got back an abnormal EEG that points to my cavernous heamangioma, but I have to wait for an MRI, the CT scan done at the hospital last night didn't show anything more abnormal, no recent bleeds. Hence probably why they sent me home twice. It didn't stick the first time as I was waiting for a taxi in the extreme cold that envelopes 6am, and that is known to trigger an episode. Second time they put me in the cab, but my wallet was at home, and by the time we got there i was not moving or talking because of his choice of a super hilly, twisty turny, route. Even though I gave instructions. He wanted to take me to the police for being uncooperative and evading my fare (by sitting in his front seat unable to move...)

I originally went to hospital because a hot shower triggered episode left me unable to talk once my left side came back.

The past three weeks my right side has taken 2 - 3 hours longer to come back. My right hand fingers are still weak, semi-posable, but moving slowly under my control.

I really give up. They win. I want my life back, or I don't want to live it anymore like this. This is not living. Whatever little joy I can squeeze out of my life is overrun by how much it sucks right now.

-Mandy

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The trouble with copper is that it is excreted through the bile...... and the bile keeps getting recycled, over and over again. About 75%, or some equally ridiculous figure, of the bile gets remetabolised back into the liver.

How the heck is it meant to actually leave?!?!?!???!?!1

-Mandy

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Mandy,

Firstly, I (more than) get your frustration; you cannot however, concede 'victory' to a group of persons who simply do not have ability to figure out what is causing this. Know that you can overcome this despite their limitations.

For me, addressing 'gut' issues has been an effective first step and has afforded me some relief. (I drink a 'shot' of aloe vera juice in the AM and a 1/3 cup of kefir in the PM before bed). I also now avoid all sugar alcohols and fructose (aside from that found naturally in fruits and the like). And I'm taking an 'herbal' vitamin C in an effort to get my copper moving.

Given the fact there were a limited number of changes to my diet prior to the 'catastrophic' exacerbation of what was otherwise an 'innocuous' movement disorder (chorea associated with pregnancy), I honed in on the sugar alcohols (which were present in my sublingual B12).

Of relevance here, sugar alcohols have been found (in rats) to reduce liver vitamin C and alter copper activity; more specifically, urine copper is low and serum copper is high in sugar alcohol-fed animals; further, authors of the study indicated (despite the elevation in serum copper levels) that the copper was "bound" and rendered 'unusable'.

Thus (and I am going well off the radar with this one), I believe that the altered copper profile (elevated serum and low urine) may in fact reflect a 'functional' copper deficiency (because the copper is 'bound' upon exposure to the sugar alcohol) and 'stuck' in the blood; I suspect that the same may be true of Wilson's patients - that is, that the copper is taken into storage (liver, tissue, eyes, etc.), but is slow to move out of storage and back into the bloodstream, resulting in a 'functional' copper deficiency. It could explain why this all 'feels' like Wilson's, but isn't Wilson's.

Further, sugar alcohols have (in roughly 30% of human test subjects) been found to cause vitamin B12 deficiency. Have you had your blood holotranscobalamin (active B12) and urine methylmalonic acid levels checked?

Warm regards,
kps

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Mandy,

Firstly, I (more than) get your frustration; you cannot however, concede 'victory' to a group of persons who simply do not have ability to figure out what is causing this. Know that you can overcome this despite their limitations.

For me, addressing 'gut' issues has been an effective first step and has afforded me some relief. (I drink a 'shot' of aloe vera juice in the AM and a 1/3 cup of kefir in the PM before bed). I also now avoid all sugar alcohols and fructose (aside from that found naturally in fruits and the like). And I'm taking an 'herbal' vitamin C in an effort to get my copper moving.

Given the fact there were a limited number of changes to my diet prior to the 'catastrophic' exacerbation of what was otherwise an 'innocuous' movement disorder (chorea associated with pregnancy), I honed in on the sugar alcohols (which were present in my sublingual B12).

Of relevance here, sugar alcohols have been found (in rats) to reduce liver vitamin C and alter copper activity; more specifically, urine copper is low and serum copper is high in sugar alcohol-fed animals; further, authors of the study indicated (despite the elevation in serum copper levels) that the copper was "bound" and rendered 'unusable'.

Thus (and I am going well off the radar with this one), I believe that the altered copper profile (elevated serum and low urine) may in fact reflect a 'functional' copper deficiency (because the copper is 'bound' upon exposure to the sugar alcohol) and 'stuck' in the blood; I suspect that the same may be true of Wilson's patients - that is, that the copper is taken into storage (liver, tissue, eyes, etc.), but is slow to move out of storage and back into the bloodstream, resulting in a 'functional' copper deficiency. It could explain why this all 'feels' like Wilson's, but isn't Wilson's.

Further, sugar alcohols have (in roughly 30% of human test subjects) been found to cause vitamin B12 deficiency. Have you had your blood holotranscobalamin (active B12) and urine methylmalonic acid levels checked?

Warm regards,
kps

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ok, I havn't read the second one, but if I did I would forget the first. B12 is in the very low range of normal, supplements are not working, nothing is really getting into the system, so I am getting shots of B12, zinc, B group, vit c.

I have never looked into suger alcohol, could you send me a link to anything you've found? This study perhaps?

I get an exacerbation of symptoms following mega doses of zinc, either on a daily tablet, or the injection.

It's hard not to concede defeat. I'm going back to my country town after my MRI on Friday, although I crave independance, I can't afford it right now.

Now the next post.

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Mandy-

It's interesting that you have been having an exacerbation of symptoms following mega doses of zinc as zinc competes with copper for absorption in the gut. This appears to support my assertion that despite elevated serum copper levels that what we may really be looking at here is a 'functional' copper deficiency - and that the zinc you are taking could be further suppressing whatever 'usable' copper you do have in your system.

As to sugar alcohols, I would recommend (to start) reading the studies identified below.

1.) Heinrich HC, Staak M. Letter to the editor: sorbitol, an inhibitor of intestinal absorption of vitamin B12. Amer J Clin Nutr. 1960 Mar-Apr;(8)247-248.

2.) Boger WP, Brashear DS, Gavin JJ. Enhancement of serum B12 by d-sorbitol. Amer J Clin Nutr. 1959 May-June; (7):318-324.

IN THIS STUDY: Don't let the title of the study sway you. When study findings are stripped down and analyzed on a spread sheet, raw numbers reveal that a full 30% of test subjects who ingested sugar alcohols had serum B12 levels down 34% to pre-treatment levels.

3.) Salminen S, Salminen E, Bridges J, Marks V. The effects of sorbitol on the gastrointestinal microflora in rats. Z Ernahrungswiss. 1986 Jun;(2):91-5.

IN THIS STUDY: Sorbitol feeding caused a clear shift in the rat fecal microbial population from gram-negative to gram-positive. (which is key in how nutrients are absorbed and utilized).

While I recognize that sugar alcohols are widely used and likely safe in a majority of persons, it is my belief that in a certain subset of individuals, it is a detrimental agent. (I could be wrong, but I don't think so...)

In the interim, (I would) check that your supplements (tablets and injections) are free of sorbitol, mannitol, xylitol, (etc.) and of any polysorbates. Also, have you (over the past year or two) had any 'booster' shots or injections? Do you chew sugar-free gum? If yes to the latter, stop consumption immediately.

Warm regards-
kps

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The worsening could also be due to leeching copper out from wherever it is hiding into the bloodstream by the zinc to perform ye ol switcheroo of anion/cation, that you see in basic chemistry, when the element containing compound inserted into the system is lower/higher (select whichever one is correct, If I choose one it will be the wrong one) on the electrochemical scale.

btw, those studies are very old, chemistry doesn't really change much, but medicine does.

I don't think I'll ever figure out the link between progesterone / copper / cavernous haemangioma / my episodes.

-Mandy

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