Glycerin hypothesis

** Originally posted by BrianH **

This (NPF) resource of contact and information is hugely valuable and a great mine of information. As a result of reading and feedback and direct contact with members, I have come to a somewhat more "sophisticated" hypothesis about how Glycerin is functioning normally and therapeutically with respect to psoriasis. (See wildflowerAnn's Glycerin thread http://www.psoriasis.org/forum/showthread.php?t=29633 for ongoing discussion of individual experiences, and some of the background material and references, such as http://tinyurl.com/4wob2n and http://www.cleaning101.com/oleo/whygly2.cfm )
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Normal skin has 4 stages ( http://www.healtheez.com/glycerin.htm , http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/12/031203075525.htm ) : (only) bottom layer dividing and generating new cells, top dying as a drying & waxy barrier against water etc. in the environment. ("... In the endless cycle of skin-cell production, the youngest cells move up from the deepest layer and switch from replicating as their main function to eventually becoming mature surface cells that spit out lipids to help form the skin's protective barrier before they die.")

So these layers are normally separated by glycerin, which keeps them in their proper "sequence" of development, plus lubricates. This is also partly due to the signaling function of g. which "tells" each layer what it is supposed to be doing. Glycerin is normally in ready supply, as it is a (10%) usual breakdown product of fat (in its triglyceride form).

In a p. plaque/spot, the inter-layer glycerin is missing or blocked, or simply unable to keep up with a "burst" of proliferation/inflammation. Layers stick together and get muddled, all continuing to divide and thicken. Lymph and blood supply systems etc. are overwhelmed.

(Exactly how the blood & lymph systems react and cope may determine which "type" of p. one has.)

The undifferentiated "lump" of skin eventually outruns its nutrition supply, etc., and starts to die off at the surface, but in a messy and badly-layered manner. This is "plaque" flaking.

Applying sufficient topical glycerin or using it orally gets the normal layering re-started down at the base of the sequence, and stops the dividing and out-of-control growth of the older piled-up layers.

As the normal 4 layers re-establish from underneath, what I have called the "time-machine rewind" appears on the surface, as the p.-skin is pushed up and dies off. Depending on how long-standing and thick that is, it may be a quick or slower process.

As the normal stage #4 reaches the surface, the last p.-skin falls away, and normal skin is left.

Whatever caused the burst of p.-growth and shortage of normal g. between layers can recur, so quick re-establishment of adequate glycerin supply topically and/or orally is beneficial/necessary.
---
Other successful treatment modes work primarily by interrupting some other aspect of the above sequence, like inhibiting the inflammation/proliferation response. Some of these have systemic side-effects, as they are dealing with or altering general fundamental cell functions. One of glycerin's advantages seems to be the absence of such complications, and its ready availability at low cost. (Which, come to think of it, should make research and application immensely attractive to insurance companies! :) ?? )

By BrianFH
Reply 1646822
April 22, 2008 at 5:35 pm
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** Originally posted by BrianH **

The dramatic ultra-red stage after the plaque/flaking goes has puzzled me a bit, but there's a fairly straightforward way to explain it, I think.

The p. tissues, like any inflamed tissue, must eat (be nourished) and get oxygen, dump CO2 and waste, etc. -- so capillaries grow into it for that purpose. Once the flaking falls away and the tissues stop reproducing, the blood supply it had recruited is still there. As the capillaries cut off and shrink when they "see" they're no longer needed, the tissue pinks down, and this process continues as the skin reverts to normal functioning.

It is interesting in this regard that I'd had since childhood a port-wine stain on the back of my neck, left side. After having used G. fairly intensively for a while on my shins, elbows, etc., I noticed that the stain was almost faded out. I put a bit of G. on it a few times after than, and since then (2 years ago?) it has been clear. I'd rarely paid attention to it, except for occasional brief twinges of embarrassment at the barber's ( :eek: ;) ).

So there appears to be some direct "discipline imposing" effect with regards to oversupply of capillaries, on a systemic basis. This also, perhaps has some worthwhile implications for controlling blood supply to other out-of-control tissue types.

By npf-189 (Inactive)
Reply 1646823 · In reply to 1646822 by BrianFH
April 22, 2008 at 7:01 pm
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** Originally posted by DottieD **

Hi Brian - interesting theory! I have been trying glycerin on the spot above my R eyebrow (as you suggested), and also on some recalcitrant spots on my right arm. I think you're on to something - the spots are definitely starting to get better compared to untreated spots on my legs.

Thank-you so much for sharing this information with us.

DottieD

By npf-189 (Inactive)
Reply 1646824 · In reply to 1646823 by npf-189
April 23, 2008 at 8:21 am
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** Originally posted by DottieD **

Hello again - Thinking about your explanation of how glycerin helps the skin woke me up last night (!) trying to fit this information into what I already understand about p.

First of all, a minor correction from the Wildflower thread: Triglycerides are made up of a glycerin molecule combined with three fatty acids. They are often depicted as the letter "E" with glycerin being the vertical "backbone" and the 3 fatty acids being the horizontal lines. I think that when fats are digested the fatty acids break off, so that could make glycerin available to do other things in the body.

One thought is: people who eat high carb diets often get a worsening of p. It is thought that eating a lot of simple carbs causes increased insulin secretion which is known to promote the production of inflammatory cytokines. But it may be that the more important effect is that when someone eats mostly carbs instead of foods that contain fat, the amount of free glycerin in their body may be low.

On the other hand, triglycerides (fats) that come from animals usually contains a fatty acid known as arachidonic acid, which is a big promoter of inflammation in the body. So if a person were to eat fewer carbs and more fats, it would be important to eat only vegetable fats (like margarine, olive oil, coconut oil, and cooking oils). Of course, taking a spoon of pure glycerin would be more effective than eating a lot of fat in order to get some glycerin from it!

Likewise, when a person with p goes on a diet, their skin often gets better. Perhaps this could be explained by the fact that when you are actively losing weight, your body has to use its stores of fat for energy. So as fats are broken down, there is more glycerin available in the body to do the functions that you mentioned.

(Note: these are just speculations.)

We all realize that psoriasis is a very complex disease/condition and there are a lot of factors involved. But glycerin may turn out to be an important player in keeping it under control. I hope so!!!!

Thanks again, DottieD

By JustDucky2
Reply 1646825 · In reply to 1646824 by npf-189
April 23, 2008 at 11:44 am
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** Originally posted by JustDucky **

Sigh...how come what is supposed to work, doesnt work on me..lol

I just lost about 15 pounds in the past two months..from changing my diet and avoiding the white foods as much as possible.

So far, I dont see the amount of spots I get, being cut down. I thought it was...but just when I think most are going..I notice a few more coming.

By BrianFH
Reply 1646826 · In reply to 1646824 by npf-189
April 23, 2008 at 2:59 pm
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** Originally posted by BrianH **

Hello again - Thinking about your explanation of how glycerin helps the skin woke me up last night (!) trying to fit this information into what I already understand about p.

First of all, a minor correction from the Wildflower thread: Triglycerides are made up of a glycerin molecule combined with three fatty acids. They are often depicted as the letter "E" with glycerin being the vertical "backbone" and the 3 fatty acids being the horizontal lines. I think that when fats are digested the fatty acids break off, so that could make glycerin available to do other things in the body.

One thought is: people who eat high carb diets often get a worsening of p. It is thought that eating a lot of simple carbs causes increased insulin secretion which is known to promote the production of inflammatory cytokines. But it may be that the more important effect is that when someone eats mostly carbs instead of foods that contain fat, the amount of free glycerin in their body may be low.

On the other hand, triglycerides (fats) that come from animals usually contains a fatty acid known as arachidonic acid, which is a big promoter of inflammation in the body. So if a person were to eat fewer carbs and more fats, it would be important to eat only vegetable fats (like margarine, olive oil, coconut oil, and cooking oils). Of course, taking a spoon of pure glycerin would be more effective than eating a lot of fat in order to get some glycerin from it!

Likewise, when a person with p goes on a diet, their skin often gets better. Perhaps this could be explained by the fact that when you are actively losing weight, your body has to use its stores of fat for energy. So as fats are broken down, there is more glycerin available in the body to do the functions that you mentioned.

(Note: these are just speculations.)

We all realize that psoriasis is a very complex disease/condition and there are a lot of factors involved. But glycerin may turn out to be an important player in keeping it under control. I hope so!!!!

Thanks again, DottieD

Very interesting stuff, Dottie! I wonder how people on the Atkins diet do if they have p. I don't recall seeing it discussed anywhere. {break} Google points me to a number of contradictory results, but it looks like it may help some for a while, but that the benefit isn't necessarily permanent.

I am thinking about putting up some of my "deeper" thoughts about why the body psoriates ( ;) ). The glycerin balance etc. is not fundamental, I think, though it's a crucial link and "attack point". Later.

By Mikel-
Reply 1646827 · In reply to 1646826 by BrianFH
April 23, 2008 at 3:13 pm
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** Originally posted by Mikel **

I was wondering its been a week on the Glycerin application Regimen and I see to have gained a stone or two. Could it be the Glycerin, is it metabolised when applied externally?
It is sweet so I thought there may be a connection.

By Frannie_A
Reply 1646828 · In reply to 1646827 by Mikel-
April 23, 2008 at 4:58 pm
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** Originally posted by crowfriend **

Hi Brian H,

Thanks for the info on glycerin.

I have a patch of plaque P just under my eye, on sensitive skin of the lower lid, adjacent to my eye. Naturally I'm concerned about the safety of what I put there. Would this be an appropriate place to try glycerin? Any concerns that you know of?

Thanks

By nina2002nina
Reply 1646829 · In reply to 1646827 by Mikel-
April 23, 2008 at 5:46 pm
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** Originally posted by nina2002nina **

I was wondering its been a week on the Glycerin application Regimen and I see to have gained a stone or two. Could it be the Glycerin, is it metabolised when applied externally?
It is sweet so I thought there may be a connection.

Mike -
Forgive me for asking, but what do you mean by stone or two? I am confused and new to the P world. I was recently dx with Pustular P and I don't know what a P stone is. It doesn't sound good. I hope it is not the glycerine.

Hi Brian
My husband picked up some glycerine USP for me last night. They didn't have the veggy kind, but he got it anyway. How often should I put it on? I tried putting it on the edge of my Pustular P on my foot 2-3 times today. It is doing something, but I don't know how to describe it. It is flatter, but it seems to be too dry maybe. The fissures on my foot in that area are looking more defined and I don't know if that is good or not. The good news is that it doesn't burn or itch so I hope it helps. I am a little afraid to put it in the big area yet. I will keep my fingers crossed.

Thanks

By noel386
Reply 1646831 · In reply to 1646826 by BrianFH
April 23, 2008 at 6:26 pm
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** Originally posted by debicamp13 **

i was on atkins about 5 years ago and lost around 50lbs (gained it back) ;-((

my skin was in a flare when i started and stayed in a flare till i started enbrel at that time......i couldnt tell the lower carbs/ low fat did anything except make me lose weight of course...........to me it all boils down to what our bodies respond to and our messed up genetics!

By jaybeee
Reply 1646832 · In reply to 1646831 by noel386
April 23, 2008 at 7:52 pm
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** Originally posted by JayBee **

ok, i think i was one of the first to jump on brian's glycerine bandwagon and started it almost immediately after reading his posts and conversing with him. i also started humira about 1 week prior so i knew my test would not be perfect. however, i started on the spots on my hands and just one leg. the spots on my hands cleared within about 4 days and the leg i was treating got much pinker than the one i didn't. impatient as i am, i thought "hey, if this is working, let's bag the test and use it everywhere". so, i have been using it wherever i have plaques, large or small. the spots on my arms are virtually gone, and the legs have gone through an interesting process (pink, then dry, then red, then clearing in between, and the dry spots seem to be shedding with clear skin underneath).

i have been on humira for almost 3 weeks and have had only 2 40mg injections. i saw my doc today for my first visit since starting the humira and told him about the glycerine. he believed that the clearing i am seeing is a result of the humira but was not completely dismissive of the glycerine (though he was unfamiliar with it as a treatment). he suggested, that if i wanted a true test, i could stop the humira, or vice versa, but i think we know that humira works so not sure what i would be learning. he was of the opinion that if i found success with glycerine or accupuncture, he could accept that. if i said i got clear from say, bungee jumping, he would be more skeptical.

anyway, this is my current conundrum. if it were not summertime and i was not anxious to get clear i would stop the humira and do this test. also, the humira is working on the PsA, which i'm not sure the glycerine would, so that's another sacrifice. but, my PsA is far from debilitating to begin with. i should also add that he had no reservations about using glycerine if i feel that it is helpful.

By BrianFH
Reply 1646833 · In reply to 1646827 by Mikel-
April 23, 2008 at 8:29 pm
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A stone or two? In a week? Gude Gawd, man, that's Brit talk for 14-28 lbs!

I doubt you've used as much as one ounce of glycerin in that time. If you can turn an ounce into 20lbs, you need to start a magic show somewhere! ;)

By BrianFH
Reply 1646834 · In reply to 1646832 by jaybeee
April 23, 2008 at 8:38 pm
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ok, i think i was one of the first to jump on brian's glycerine bandwagon and started it almost immediately after reading his posts and conversing with him. i also started humira about 1 week prior so i knew my test would not be perfect. however, i started on the spots on my hands and just one leg. the spots on my hands cleared within about 4 days and the leg i was treating got much pinker than the one i didn't. impatient as i am, i thought "hey, if this is working, let's bag the test and use it everywhere". so, i have been using it wherever i have plaques, large or small. the spots on my arms are virtually gone, and the legs have gone through an interesting process (pink, then dry, then red, then clearing in between, and the dry spots seem to be shedding with clear skin underneath).

i have been on humira for almost 3 weeks and have had only 2 40mg injections. i saw my doc today for my first visit since starting the humira and told him about the glycerine. he believed that the clearing i am seeing is a result of the humira but was not completely dismissive of the glycerine (though he was unfamiliar with it as a treatment). he suggested, that if i wanted a true test, i could stop the humira, or vice versa, but i think we know that humira works so not sure what i would be learning. he was of the opinion that if i found success with glycerine or accupuncture, he could accept that. if i said i got clear from say, bungee jumping, he would be more skeptical.

anyway, this is my current conundrum. if it were not summertime and i was not anxious to get clear i would stop the humira and do this test. also, the humira is working on the PsA, which i'm not sure the glycerine would, so that's another sacrifice. but, my PsA is far from debilitating to begin with. i should also add that he had no reservations about using glycerine if i feel that it is helpful.

Yes, the PsA is a biiiig unknown. IF it is true that G. suppresses inflammation generally, then there is some basis for thinking it helps PsA, too. But ????.

Too bad your impatience spoiled your scientific investigation! :) But your sequence is very interesting. I am thinking more and more that it seems the G. starts its main work on the basal layer, where normal cell division is occurring, and the "normalized" sequence of layers pushes the p. tissue upwards, while it is simultaneously blocked from dividing and thickening by the G. So the coloration will depend on how heavily vascularized each surface p. layer is as it surfaces and dies off or is absorbed by the uppermost "normal" layer. That would mean that a few sequences of appearance are possible; certainly I've noticed that the lighter/thinner/newer patches can jump directly to pink, dots, gone.

It also occurs to me to wonder if darker skin looks or responds differently. Does p. cause bleaching which is then reversed by G., for example?

As a side note, I am now using G. for my recently discovered burning butt inverse p. It is helping, but it has taken a week of 3X/daily+ applications to make a difference. Since I don't understand the processes involved in "inverse", I am unsure what to expect. Will keep y'all posted on my self-experimentation.

My "Hypothesis" is becoming more detailed in my thinking, will do a brain dump shortly.

P.S. JB, the acupuncture sounds messy and painful. But keep us posted, 'kay? ;)

By BrianFH
Reply 1646835 · In reply to 1646828 by Frannie_A
April 23, 2008 at 9:02 pm
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Hi Brian H,

Thanks for the info on glycerin.

I have a patch of plaque P just under my eye, on sensitive skin of the lower lid, adjacent to my eye. Naturally I'm concerned about the safety of what I put there. Would this be an appropriate place to try glycerin? Any concerns that you know of?

Thanks

G. 'burns' when it gets into the eye; I'd try a ½tsp or so orally instead. But you might do very careful application with a Q-tip, stroking away from the eye only.

By BrianFH
Reply 1646836 · In reply to 1646829 by nina2002nina
April 23, 2008 at 9:08 pm
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I found it worked very well on the feet, though the skin layers are so thick it behaves a little differently. In the end, I just found the "pads" thinning down and the pain vanishing. Doing the "Vaseline muddle" mix with a fingertip and applying that seems to help with the dryness, though.

The "defined" appearance I'd interpret as a cessation of the proliferation of new cells and tissue. They should begin to recede and be "under-taken" by new good skin growing from underneath. Keep us informed! This is very helpful.

By BrianFH
Reply 1646837 · In reply to 1646833 by BrianFH
April 23, 2008 at 9:12 pm
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Oops! Sorry, alli, I jumped on Mikel's post without seeing you'd already questioned that measure. I hate to ask or speculate, but ... do you suppose Mikel was 'stoned' when he wrote that? ;) :eek: ;)

By BrianFH
Reply 1646838 · In reply to 1646837 by BrianFH
April 23, 2008 at 10:19 pm
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** Originally posted by BrianH **

There is a site at "How Stuff Works" in the "In-Depth Health" section written by a Hahhvahd Doctor, which seems very complete. It was written in 2006, but may have been updated (?). Anyhow, http://healthguide.howstuffworks.com/psoriasis-in-depth.htm

You'll likely find stuff on any medication you're taking, though some may be slightly out-of-date. Humira is mentioned as being in final trials, e.g. This NPF site is mentioned as the first "Resource" on p. 11.

No mention of glycerin. I guess he didn't read the MCG articles. ;)

By jaybeee
Reply 1646839 · In reply to 1646838 by BrianFH
April 23, 2008 at 11:05 pm
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** Originally posted by JayBee **

---P.S. JB, the acupuncture sounds messy and painful. But keep us posted, 'kay? ---

i'm not doing the acupuncture (though my sis does it and it is neither painful nor messy). he just mentioned it as an alternative therapy that some people use in an effort to illustrate that he found it, like glycerine, to be reasonable as opposed to a fictitious theory that bungee jumping will clear psoriasis. he was being humorous.

By npf-86 (Inactive)
Reply 1646840 · In reply to 1646838 by BrianFH
April 23, 2008 at 11:06 pm
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** Originally posted by kj422 **

Where do you buy your glycerin? What does it say on the bottle/tube? I want to make sure that I am buying the correct product.

Thanks!

By BrianFH
Reply 1646841 · In reply to 1646839 by jaybeee
April 24, 2008 at 12:54 am
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---P.S. JB, the acupuncture sounds messy and painful. But keep us posted, 'kay? ;)

i'm not doing the acupuncture (though my sis does it and it is neither painful nor messy). he just mentioned it as an alternative therapy that some people use in an effort to illustrate that he found it, like glycerine, to be reasonable as opposed to a fictitious theory that bungee jumping will clear psoriasis. he was being humorous.

Jeez arreddy! So was I. :) The hint is the ;) smiley after the sentence. Not to mention my jocular wording. I joculate lots!

I was, you see, trying to evoke the bloody image of needles piercing your plaques. And yes, I know that's not how acupuncture works! That was the joke.

See how boring it is to have to 'splain everything? I generally don't. And it does get me in trouble. As you have undoubtedly observed. ;)

By BrianFH
Reply 1646842 · In reply to 1646840 by npf-86
April 24, 2008 at 1:09 am
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Where do you buy your glycerin? What does it say on the bottle/tube? I want to make sure that I am buying the correct product.

Thanks!

Hi, kj;
Welcome to the fray! The original Glycerin thread is just titled "Glycerin", and is full of that kind of info plus lots of controversy and hints. Etc. I'm trying to keep this thread focussed on the data and guesses and speculation about how it works. But, to answer your question: "Glycerin USP" is the pure consumer glycerin (USP means United States Pharmacopoeia). There is also pure vegetable glycerin, which is specifically ok'd for internal use as well, tho' IMO the USP is safe for that to in any reasonable small dosages, or even in unreasonable large doses ;). The vegetable version is sold in many health food stores etc., or is available online in the US at http://www.nowfoods.com/?action=itemdetail&item_id=3276 and in Canada at http://www.aviva.ca/shop/products.asp?itemid=308&catid=158 . If you are in Vancouver, it is available at Caper's and Whole Foods. The bottles cost something under $1/oz, generally. It is a syrupy, slightly oily feeling alcohol.

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