LLLT(LOW LEVEL LASER THERAPY) FOR SPINAL CORD REGENERATION

• By wesdale
• Posted November 6, 2009 at 9:25 am
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Quantum Neurology/George Gonzalez, DC may be of interest to this forum. Dr. Gonzalez has researched and developed neurological evaluation and rehabilitation treatment protocols that help neurological injuries using red and infrared light therapy.

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• By quadyame
• Posted November 5, 2009 at 1:21 pm
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Yes I read that you need to begiven meds to see if it will do any good, thay are looking into it.
Tim-quadyame

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• By Rehana
• Posted November 5, 2009 at 6:55 am
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Learning 1
I am very impress about your response I feel that this is your family matter thankyou very much
my baby is improving day by day and her problem is minimise to spinl area normall phisio therapy is applied regularly since 5 months
In my contry Pakistan there is no Laser therapy of spinal nerve I dont know in our case Laser therapy is neccesary or not
I want detail adress or any contacts I want to direct comminicate with Drs. or institutions Once again thankyou very much you and inspire team who work for better now I am also part of inspire team and want to work for better togather

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• By Rehana
• Posted November 5, 2009 at 6:54 am
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Learning 1
I am very impress about your response I feel that this is your family matter thankyou very much
my baby is improving day by day and her problem is minimise to spinl area normall phisio therapy is applied regularly since 5 months
In my contry Pakistan there is no Laser therapy of spinal nerve I dont know in our case Laser therapy is neccesary or not
I want detail adress or any contacts I want to direct comminicate with Drs. or institutions Once again thankyou very much you and inspire team who work for better now I am also part of inspire team and want to work for better togather

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• By Learning1
• Posted November 3, 2009 at 12:37 pm
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Rehana,

The situation you mention with your 15 month old granddaughter is a difficult one. It is something I have not even seen any studies on. Even the published studies seem to stop about 2005, as the researchers seem to have now switched to trying to patent preliminary ideas that worked and helped those with spinal cord related paralysis. So right now, until the researchers take the next step and release patented (and probably much more expensive) technologies, we are left with the results of the initial studies done with spinal cord injuries, the over 3000 studies that show that low level lasers help many situations, and the theory behind low level laser therapy.

Laser and other energy medicine related techologies work by assisting the body to try to heal itself. They do not do the healing. Lasers work at the cellular level, adding energy (photons) to the cells, adding strength to the body's ability to heal. They also increase micro-circulation, increase lymph drainage. Somehow they aid in healing and normally speed up the healing process. With laser and other energy medicine items, it is not specifically the cause of the injury, but the resulting damage that determines the challenges present. Sometimes it helps to identify the cause, though, to see what ideas might help reverse the issues.

You mention that your granddaughter's injury was caused by something in the surgery. Depending on what happened there, possible causes could be an allergic reaction to someting like the anesthetic, having the needle hit the wrong spot during an injection (if done directly in that area of the spinal column, or even something as simple as laying her the wrong way, without proper support, when her muscles were completely relaxed by the anesthetic (i.e. there is at least one recorded cases where someone was very drunk and was laid with his head on the curb, and body on the street - this alone resulted in complete paralysis because the position overstretched the spinal column, and the muscles were too relaxed to support the neck).

With spinal cord injuries, something damages the spinal cord, whether a physical injury or some type of allergic (or similar) reaction. This causes an inflammation in the spinal column area. The body sees injured cells and the defence mechanism kicks in and starts cleaning house, removing the injured or damaged cells. This takes time. If the inflamation can be reduced or controlled immediately, in some cases paralysis has been prevented. Apparently lasers, scenars, cosmodics, and some drugs, can help prevent or reduce the inflammation if used immediately. If there is a delay, the body's clean-up system goes to work, and needed cells are removed, increasing the degree of resulting paralysis.

To the extent that key communication cells (neurons) remain after the injury, and are not removed by the body's clean-up system, once inflammation goes down, and initial recovery occurs, things often improve somewhat. This seems to be what has happened with your granddaughter. She has regained some functionality, which is very good. The challenge is trying to encourage the body to go beyond what is possible initially.

Because of how the body's protection system works, and the confined nature of the spinal column, the body has several built in processes which under normal circumstances prevent cell growth in the spinal column. Basically, the body does not want extra cells growing in this confined area, since in a healty body, this would cause major problems. For some reason, this continues to be the case even after a spinal cord injury. One thing that they have discovered in the last few years is that even the cells in the spinal column are replaced on a regular basis (though the spinal column and brain are the slowest areas for replacing, maybe once every 10 years or so). The problem is that, after an injury, the blue-print that seems to be used for replacing the cells over time is the damaged / injured state that existed after the injury, rather than the original status that existed before it, so under normal circumstances, the injured status is carried forward even though cells are replaced.

From the few published studies (and there are not a lot on spinal cord or nerve injuries), it appears that extensive use of a low level laser on the injury site may, under the right circumstances, inhibit the defence mechanism which prevents neuron re-growth, and allow the body to make progress in trying to bridge the gap. There are apparently a few drugs they have tried (by injection) which may to some extent accomplish the same thing. The exact perameters for what is needed to accomplish this have not been defined, and anything right now is just a guess. Once the defence mechanism is put on hold, and neurons begin to grow, it appears that neuron growth is somehow dependent on some form of stimulation, basically the body's call for a working connection.

You say you are interested in laser therapy or any thing else. Will this techology work? From what I've seen and read, it has aready helped some people who were well past the time when the doctors said they should have improvement. Will it work for everybody? Only time will tell. Part of the situations where it seems to have helped is regular use. But some have reported extra muscle spasms also. To date we don't know if the muscle spasms are related to what they are trying, if they are part of the recovery process, and if there is a connection, what that connection is. To date, it appears that with the less severe paralysis, the minor muscle spasms may be a good sign, since improvement has occurred after the spasms. Those with more significant, higher up, paralysis may at times have more or greater spasms (from those who have reported results), and with some there are not yet any reported results otherwise.

When I get more time, I'll put down some extra thoughts. 808 nm to 810 nm lasers seem to be the key ones that have helped with spinal cord injuries to date. Resonating lasers in at least some situations may have helped start the process, and helped energize the body. And a different technology, cosmodic (the advanced version of scenar) also seems to hold a lot of hope.

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• By Rehana
• Posted November 1, 2009 at 4:48 am
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my grand daughter now she is 15 month old in May 2009 just after her surgery she was affected spinal cord nurve injury not by hitting any thing but reaction of anithesia or some thing else during surgery and she had lost all movements under neck area and her hand and legs were paralise and even she was not able to breathing Dr. advice for ventilation and she convert to ventilater for 12 days at that Dr. says their is no hope you may remove ventilater. After removing ventilater she survive with very dificult breathing but day by day she is improving now she is much better and herlegs and arms are working better but her spinal area (between neck and hips) is not still working
We are interested in LASER THARAPY or any thing else treatment I want to know the right way

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• By Learning1
• Posted October 22, 2009 at 9:09 pm
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Another brief update. Had lunch again with my friend with SCI. I had thought his injury was around T12 area, actually turned out to be T9-T10, complete, one vertebrae fractured, the other crushed, with harrington rods in place for support, injury from about 17 years ago.

As reported previously, he was able to sit better outside his chair, and began to feel his toes a little after using a Vetrolaser for a couple months or so. He used it for another month or so after that, and with that, he doesn't slide forward in his chair like he used to, and he has feeling going a bit lower down his back than he's had for the past 17 years.

A couple weeks ago he stopped using it for a bit, and for the past week or so he's been using a little Cosmodic device, a 705 mini (the smallest current vintage cosmodic produced by LET Medical) on his back, hoping to stimulate more neuron growth. He says that leg spasms seemed to increase a little, along with his progress otherwise. To work on the muscle spasms he's going to be trying a little very basic scenar (a RITM home scenar) on his legs and points of spasms, etc, and working to try to overcome years of muscle atrophy.

He's also trying an inexpensive vibration plate to try to begin to overcome some of the leg atrophy (something recommended by an exercise physiologist I know in Colorado). Basic info on vibration plate use for non-SCI situations is at www.anti-aging-vibes.com under "vibration exercise". His suggestion was that someone with SCI can sit beside it and put their feet on it, or even sit on it. A less expensive version ($199 US) is available from Showcase, and that's what my friend is trying.

I'll let everybody know how my friend progresses with these.

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• By Learning1
• Posted August 31, 2009 at 4:01 pm
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An informal report from my friend with SCI (the person who got me looking at, and responding to, this site -complete - approx T12 - injured 17 years ago).
I had lunch with him today and got a brief update. He's been trying a little laser (a Vetro laser - what seems to be the most cost effective 808 nm laser out there), using it regularly on the spinal cord, in his injury site, for what must be close to two months. He didn't supply the exact times or locations used, but it sounds like, when he has the time, he's trying to use it regularly, probably close to an hour or so a day. He says that he's now getting some changes in feeling - the changes so far are little ones, but they seem to be coming. And for no improvements in years, he's happy to see some progress finally, even the little ones he's seeing. Before he wasn't able to feel his toes at all. Now he can feel them a little. He also often had trouble sittling away from his chair. He says he now can sit better outside his chair, and he doesn't tend fall over the same way, and seems to have more strength in that area. He has harington rods in place to support the area, and they don't seem to interfere with the laser.

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• By Learning1
• Posted August 28, 2009 at 5:49 pm
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Thanks Creekwater,

I'm trying to understand what you've set out here - when you get a chance more details would be great.

Let me guess the translation. By "base" do you mean the multi-diode, 5 mw each, base laser with your laser system (which also powers the other lasers)? By "dio" do you mean the separate lasers, which are powered by the main unit, which otherwise function as independent lasers (and the "to colored ones for different purposes" are probably a 660 nm red laser, which which apparently penetrates 1/2 to 1 cm [more for shallow and skin issues], and an 808 nm near-infared laser, which apparently can penetrate 4.5 to 6 cm [this is close to the wave length that Dr. Anders used with her rat experiments]. With both there is a great power loss along the way as depth increases).

When you get a chance, can you mention which of the plug-in lasers you tried, where you tried them, and for how long? Also, did you use in one place or did you use movement, did you use in one spot or a number of spots? Did you try only the area of your injury, or did you try other places, either above or below your injury, to also try to help stimulate neuron growth? This is important to anybody thinking about trying something similar themselves.

Thanks in advance!

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• By creekwater
• Posted August 27, 2009 at 7:31 pm
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L-1, hey great to get your reply. I started w/ the base and then the dio. there is two colored ones for two different purposes. I used the "red" one to get through scar tissue to start the wake up process then and that was when I started getting return to an area that I've not felt in many years, to be con't..Got to go NOW, Creekwater

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• By Learning1
• Posted August 13, 2009 at 11:38 am
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Mkusiak,

I hope the ideas help. There are no hard and fast guidelies for SCI, and the ideas for applying come from Dr. Anders' experiments with rats, plus other laser applications, and some other SCI treatment comments and other electronic medicine concepts. The two week time frame is what Dr. Anders ran her experiment for, and the time they used the drug that seemed to help with getting past scar tissue (mentioned on the Christoper Reeves Foundation site).

Laser use might also work if run longer. My impression is that Tiger may be trying without a break, but he can shed more light on this. I suspect that part of the reason for the experiments stopping at 2 weeks in the experiments was because of the time intensive nature of the treatment, and for some type of experiment perameters, and with the drug therapy, you don't want to use that type of drugs any longer than you have to for beginning to get results, at least for the initlal trials. Laser seems to do more what drugs do, in that it also seems to provide a stimulation for helping neuron growth.

If you choose to go longer, and if benefits are achieved, then stop laser use at that point when the benefits stop. It probably means that the body has achieved optimum energy at that point, and the body needs a time to absorb and use what it has, and needs time to regroup. At that point, you can look at working on, and stimulating, a different part of the body to see if you can begin getting the body to call for neuron growth.

If you strart getting benefit, and after a break of laser use at the point the benefits seem to stop, it is probably time to start looking at using it again.

It sounds like the initial results with Dr. Anders' experiments started showing up around 2 weeks later. Whether they would have occurred if the laser use had continued, I don't know, since that wasn't run as part of the experiment. As I read it, with the rats, they kept trying to move after their laser treatment (they were not imobilized), so it was not a period of total inactivity, or totally no stimulation, but it was not an active program of extra stimulation.

The idea of a possible two week break comes from the Christopher Reeves Foundation site, where it is suggested that there be about a 2 week gap between the end of drug treatment (done to reduce the scar tissue and the body's defence mechanisms that normally prevent SCI healing) and intense physio / exercise programs (done to help grow neurons through the area), to avoid some type of cross growth which would defeat the purpose of the scar tissue reduction. From what I've heard, I'm not sure if this type of break is helpful or not when laser is used. Laser more natural and more gentle, and if done right, you are also going beyond the point of injury to stimulate areas below, even going down the spine a bit after the direct use on the areas of injury, and possibly used on the feet for a few minutes also (to try to provide some stimulation calling for the nerves to grow - with a bit of massage on the feet, etc).

Based on the ideas out there, once something is done which reduces the scar tissue and temporarily inhibits the body's natural defence mechanisms (which prevent SCI regrowth naturally), it sounds like it takes some form of stimulation to get the neurons to begin growing, lengthening, etc, past the scar tissue area. The stimulation can be by physio / exercise, or it can be by other means. One experiment in about 2002 used a scenar and seemed to help. The Chinese seem to have used some type of TENS stimulation. A French SCI clinic seems to use acupoint therapy as part of their stimulation. Massage also seems to be something that may help. And it sounds like one of the things that helps with laser or scenar is working down the back a bit, and on the feet, and possibly on the legs. Another stimulation that helped in one London study was cranial magnetic pulse therapy, where they thought that the brain sent signals up to three times as strong as normal down to the point of injury, pushing the body to improve neuron connections - in that experiment they felt it was probably as effective for this stimulation as extensive phsio / exercise therapy.

I have been using a laser for other things since October, and have seen different things laser helps with. Even my 9 year old daughter now comes and gets the laser for sore areas, bug bites, and to speed up healing from different small injuries. After I began seeing benefits from laser use, I heard the comments in the short audio excerpts (links posted earlier on this site) about SCI improvements when a beautician / barber tried an 808 on a couple of her customers and they had improvements. I thought about a friend with SCI and started digging to see if I could find out more so I could help him. Eventually, after I became comfortable with the potential for it being able to help, I shared the basics with my friend, and he is now trying a Vetrolaser, and he seems to be beginning to get some initial small improvements 17 years after his injury (and years without any improvement). I also ran across Tiger's blog here, and his question, shared what I knew, and Tiger decided to try a laser also. It sounds like Tiger is also beginning to notice some things. I understand that Tiger is using his laser on both sides of his spine, and on the injury site, for a total of 20 minutes per day. His laser is 1000 mw total, so the same power with a Vetrolaser would be 100 minutes per day.

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• By mkusiak
• Posted August 12, 2009 at 2:34 pm
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Dear Learning 1,
Oh my goodness….youre an angel! I couldn’t get my questions answered by anyone before…..and you certainly went above and beyond with your very detailed and informative explanation! Thank you so so so very much! I am definitely trying to rig up something to hold the laser in place….I was thinking maybe a Kleenex box plastic cover; but then I worry that the plastic might heat up so I thought maybe the Kleenex box itself (cutting off the bottom and placing the laser through the top hole- so that the end of the laser rests on the opening of the tissue box). I’ll let u know how it works
How long have you had your laser for? After the two weeks, how long do you wait until you resume laser application again? Two months is it? I hope its yielded you positive results! Either way, you are right….never give up trying….that’s our family’s motto as well! :)
Thank you again…..it’s such a relief to have my many questions answered so thoroughly
Take Care,
Megan

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• By Learning1
• Posted August 7, 2009 at 10:56 am
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Saninja,

Do what you are comfortable with. But at the same time recognize that even though non-traditional medicine works in many situations, the traditional medical extablishment will be a long time before they recognize things outside their realm. They rely on what is taught in the medical schools, which are funded by foundations supported by the drug companies, and their thinking has been oriented so they rely on the FDA, which is also heavily drug company influenced. The FDA now has gotten so complex that simply showing that something is non-harmful is not enough. It takes millions of dollars in studies, and years of research, before anything gets approved. For example, even something as simple as treatment of osteoporosis of the wrist with a laser, where a number of studies already existed, required over $5 million in studies, and took over 5 years of beaurocratic steps.

There just is no money for studies for things where the information is generally in the public domain. Doctors discourage use of naturopatic remedies, and have even been reluctant to accept acupuncture, TENS, and even chiropractic, which have been around for years. Various forms of electronic medicine (what has developed into scenars, lasers, magnetic pulse therapy, and electro-stimulation therapy) have been around for over 100 years, and was making progress, especially in the days of Rife, until the medical association and the FDA made their crackdown in the mid-1930s, and at that time actually took equipment away from doctors. Today there has been a lot more progress in reseach from outside North America, where there are less restrictions. The same is true today with their prosecution of doctors and others who actually have gotten results in helping people, various naturopaths, simply because they were outside their ranks. It is not enough that something is not harmful and is actually helping people.

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• By saninja
• Posted August 7, 2009 at 6:51 am
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Hi Tiger!

My brother, who is a final year Vet student and wants to specialise in Neorolegy in the final term after his practical says he won't recommend it. I asked him to go through all the documentation I printed of the internet after this discussion started and was also very interested there in. But he knows all the medical terms, so who am I to judge?
We all hope some break through comes our way soon!
Kind regards
Jaco

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• By Learning1
• Posted August 6, 2009 at 11:33 pm
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Mkusiak,

I'm not an expert on the calculations, but with the formulas I can muddle my way through. It looks like you have it figured out. I normally take the short-cuts. The way I calculated the power of the Vetro laser was by taking a couple shortcuts. I have a 300 mw 808 nm laser myself, and was told that it put out 54 joules per minute. 200 mw would be 2/3 of that, or 36 mw. Divide that by 3 diodes, and you have 66 2/3 joules per diode per minute. I then confirmed my quick calculation with the veterinary chiropractor who handles the Vetro laser - who confirmed my calculation of 12 joules per minute per diode.

Dr. Anders' laser, for her rat experimetns, used a 150 mw - 810 nm laser - half the power of the laser I have (which would make it 27 joules), and 3/4 of the combined power of a 200 mw cluster like the Vetro laser. 810 nm is very close in frequency to an 808 nm - and Dr. Lytle says that, given the discrepancy in ratings and the difference in chemical mixtures in manufacturing, they could actually be the same wave length. At 27 joules per minute, it would take just about an hour to get 1600 joules. Using the combined power of the three diodes on a Vetro laser, it would take about 45 mintues to get to 1600 joules.

For a rat's spinal column, you might need to be fairly specific in location, so one diode is probably the right size. For a human spinal column, it is larger so the the wider area present with a Vetro laser (with power split between 3 diodes), or the Thor laser that Tiger has (with power split between 5 diodes), should not be a negative factor. The only question is how much energy is the optimum amount for a human spinal column. I suspect that the optimum amount of energy for a human spinal column is longer than for a rat's, simply because of the larger size of the spinal column.

You're right about Dr. Anders' experiment flying in the face of normal laser theory. It shouldn't work based on normal laser treatment theory. For example, the highest of the per point (cubic cm) use ratings from the WALT charts is 40 for working on the lower back. Even using 12 joules per diode, you are up to 40 joules per diode in 3 1/3 minutes, and even if each diode has an ultimate light distribution of 3 cu cm at its point of penetration (a figure mentioned by the chiropractor who handles the Vetro Laser), it would max out at 10 minutes. And since it appears the WALT chart for the lower back is actually dealing with an AREA rather than a point, it could be a lot lower.

The strange thing about it, though, is that it seems to help. Reading between the lines, it seems to be that what would otherwise be an overload might do something to the scar tissue and somehow allow the neurons to grow through or past that tissue. Possibly something sort of like what they are trying to do with the chemicals they have tried injecting at injury points to inhibit scar tissue from interfering (see the Christopher Reeves Foundation comment on that, as well as the comment on the experiments with Neurogel - both which are using chemical inhibitors to get past the body's natural factors which inhibit growth in the spinal cord area). That would be my guess.

Technically, low level laser use for that time should not be harmful based on everything I've read. Dr. Larry Lytle, in his healing Light video seminar, indicates that longer use of a laser is not harmful. What it does in most treatment situations, though, according to Dr. Larry Lytle, is similar to a bell curve. As you use more laser energy in normal situations, the benefits increase to a point where the benefts max out, Then they remain stable for a while when you are at the top of the curve. After that, you start losing the benefits that you originally had gained, getting to the point you were at before you started, and healing stalls. At that point you have to back off on laser use for a while - the cells have reached a point of saturation. It doesn't totally prevent healing at that point - it simply stalls progress until the body has had a chance to adjust and use some of the energy it has absorbed.

But if there is a side benefit of inhibiting the body's natural defence mechanism, and allowing the body to begin working past the scar tissue, it might be worth trying a short term overload. The worst that will happen is no progress, which is basically where most with SCI are at to begin with. It at least seems worth trying - if it can help get some progress, any progress, started, it should help. Some use, even shorter term, might be of use even without the overload (if you want to try it), but if shorter term use doesn't accomplish anything, it is worth trying longer term use. Dr. Anders had her rats treated for an hour a day for 2 weeks, then stopped, providing that recovery time (similar to what Dr. Lytle described in the example he gave of stalled healing of a different problem when someone over-used a higher power laser). Then the benefits then apparently began to show up a couple weeks or so later (as they did in the example Dr. Lytle gave).

With the Vetro laser, if you are going to be trying it for a longer time you will want to do a few things:
1. Get a little clamp - I found an ideal one, a small woodworking type, at a local dollar store, then cut off the excess length and smoothed the edges - it works well for the friend who is trying a Vetro laser.
2. Use the Vetro laser plugged in if you can - you can use it on battery power, but then you need to charge it, and according the the person who sells it, it charges in 2 hr, and you don't want to let it charge for over 6 hr because you could damage the battery (so you don't want to charge it overnight). You can use it when it is plugged in, making it so you are both charging it, and using it, at the same time. And other things I've read about battery operated lasers indiate that you want to use them at the upper end of their charge, since as the power drops, so do the joules of energy you get per minute - so for optimum joules per minute, you want to use it plugged in. The chiropractor who sells the Vetro laser also suggested using it charged in as the most effective way to use it (if possible in the setting).
3. Find some way to prop up the laser, or hold it in place, when using it. It is basically like a little flashight in size and weight, and would get tiresome for someone holding it.
4. Make sure you do not look directly at the laser diodes when they are on - it could harm your eyes.

And anybody who is trying a laser has to remember that lasers are not miracle workers, though at times they seem to have worked miracles, and there have been some encouraging lab experiments. Nothing with SCI is proven, and no results can be guaranteed. But with the lack of other options out there, it seems to be worth a try, and any improvement is more than usually occurs, especially after the first few years. Currently anything is experimental. From the numerous studies done, as long as you don't look at the light output by a low level laser it will not hurt you, even if used for longer times. Lasers work at a cellular level, and help the body to work on healing itself at a cellular level. Spinal cord injuries can be complex for what happens, and the built in inhibitors the body has put into place to prevent growth in the spinal cord area, and most spinal cord injuries are bruising or tearing type injuries, not the clean cuts that are done in laboratory experiments, so it is an uphill battle to gain ground. And even if you can begin to get around the built in inhibitors and the scar tissue, you then need to start getting nerve signals to and through the area, which appears to be what revives existing neurons, and develops new neuron links through the damaged area. But it looks like progress should be possible, and like Christopher Reeves approached life, he never gave up trying.

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• By mkusiak
• Posted August 6, 2009 at 9:04 pm
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Dear Everyone/ Learning 1 in particular,

I have just begun to research laser technology (every place I started from came from something someone posted on this forum…. especially the info provided by Learning1 ….thank you all so very much!)

Through this site and my own research, I decided to purchase a Vetrolaser for my dad (little does he know that I used his credit card ;) I think any improvement will be well-worth it….and if not, at least we tried.

Now that I have the Vetrolaser, I am having a very difficult time in determining what is the right dosage/ how long/ what areas to use the laser on….and the more I try to figure it out, the more I second-guess myself.

Learning1,
On June 30th, when referring to the Vetrolaser, you stated that, “key difference would be the amount of time the laser needs to be used for if you are using a single 200 mw laser.”

Therefore, I would really appreciate it if you/ anyone could look at my calculations below, both in comparison the Dr. Ander’s laser and also to Tiger93’s laser…and please please please correct me if I am mistaken….the last thing I’d wanna do it hurt my dad.

The Vetrolasers Specifications are:
• Three (3) 808 nm Diodes (infrared)
• 200mW
• Energy Density: 200-250 mW/cm 2 for the spot of laser beam
• 1 joule/cm 2 every 4-5 seconds for the spot of laser beam
• 10 joules/ cm 2 every 40-50 seconds for the spot of laser beam
• Area Covered per Diode: at 3 cu cm

The reported rating of the laser used in the experiment with rats was 810nm, 150 mw, with 50 mw per cu cm (so the laser light was a bit difuse, or spread out).

My Calculations to Match Those Used by Anders:

She used just under 1,600 joules/ per day
1,600 joules/ 10 joules for every 40-50 seconds = 160 groups of 40-50 seconds
160 X 40 = 6400 seconds total/ per day and 160 X 50 = 8000 seconds total/ per day
6400 seconds/ 60 seconds in 1 minute = 106 minutes
Or 8000 seconds/ 60 seconds in 1 minute= 133 minutes

So first- I thought that to reach the # of joules that Anders did, the laser would need to be used between 106 minutes – 133 minutes…. Or just around 2 hours.
However, I then realized that there are 3 laser beams/ diodes, so then would I:

1. Divide the # of minutes by 3
a. (106/ 3 = 35.5 & 133/3 = 44.3 minutes)
2. Multiply the # of minutes by 3
a. (106 X 3 = 318 minutes or 133 X 3= 399 minutes)

Or in reference to the advice given by Learning 1 to Tiger 93:
The reported rating of the laser used in the experiment with rats was 810nm, 150 mw, with 50 mw per cu cm (so the laser light was a bit difuse, or spread out).

A little brainstorming starting here (and going to the end of tonight's thoughts): With 5 - 200 mw diodes, each diode is putting out 36 joules of energy, and combined it is putting out 180 joules per minute.

Tiger93’s Laser:
1000 mW with 5 Diodes = 200 mW/ Diode
My Laser:
200 mW with 3 Diodes= 66.6 mW/ Diode

Tiger’s Laser:
200mW puts out 36 joules/ diode

(and 200/ 36 = 5.5)
My Laser:
66.6 mW / 5.5 = 12.1 joules/ diode

Tiger’s Laser:
36 joules/ diode X 5 diodes = 180 joules per minute
12.1 joules/ diode X 3 diodes= about 36 joules per minute


If it has the same apparent spread that Dr. Anders' laser (reported in the articles) has, it would be 12 joules per cu cm per minute.

??? I don’t know how to calculate this???

The total energy she used was just under 1,600 joules per day for 2 weeks, then she gave a time to heal / recover.


Tiger’s Laser:
1600 joules per day / 180 joules per minute = 8.889 minutes
My Laser:
1600 joules per day / 36 joules per minute= 44.4 minutes


Because Tiger’s laser is 5X as powerful as my Vetrolaser
(1000mW/ 200mW)
Tiger should use his laser 9 minutes, and because his is 5X as powerful as mine, I then would need to use my laser 5X longer:
(9 minutes X 5 = 45 minutes)


Therefore, am I correct in believing that the Vetrolaser would need to be used 44 minutes/ day in order to reach the number of joules used by Ander’s?

I would so greatly appreciate any and all opinions you guys have…because though I believe my calculations are correct, 45 minutes seems awfully long….and I worry that using the Vetrolaser for so long on my dad will lead to an energy overload and thus, no progress.

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• By Learning1
• Posted July 14, 2009 at 1:12 pm
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Rehana,

The cause of the injury should not matter with laser, scenar, or pulsed elecro-magnetic frequency therapy (PEMF). They all help the body heal itself. For example, these have also helped people with MS, parkinsons, and autoimmune problems which affect the nervous system and brain, and have helped my nephew who is autistic. There have not been a lot of studies done on any one, so you will probably not find many medical doctors using them. But the few studies done, and the number of testimonies out there, seem to show that these should help in many cases. And none of the technologies should hurt the body. What all of these do is to work on, and stimulate / add energy, at a cellular level. Each of these things, in their own way, helps to coach the body through problems, and helps get cells operating properly. By themselves they do not fix anything, but they help keep down infection and swelling, with fresher injuries they seem to inhibit (slow down or prevent) building of scar tissue, and help the body work though its healing process.

I've personally seen a number of things helped with laser and scenar / cosmodic, and have seen a lot of information and testimonies by people who have tried these, and there are not a lot of things they don't seem to help with. And the people who have begun to try lasers here seem to be getting improvement in senses, which is the starting point for improvement otherwise. Everything I've read about PEMF seems to indicate it should also help - even the pulsed magnetic therapy without the overlay of frequencies seems to help with a number of situations.

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• By Rehana
• Posted July 14, 2009 at 11:28 am
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we ar e also want to know about laser therapy for spinal or nurve injury in kids when injury is not by hitting some thing but because of reacation of surgery and reaction of anithasia my grand daughter is now one years old and durig sergery she is affected spinal injury and her legs and arms are not working and neck is not conected with their body it is 2 month old story but now through normal therapy phisio her arms are working comperitively better but legs are not working how laser is beter in our case and what is the way

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• By creekwater
• Posted July 12, 2009 at 3:52 pm
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Thanks for touching base, My wife and sister have a business w/ this low level scalar wave business and Quantum Bio feed back in N.H.. I've had a shoulder issue that w/ the direct probes from the Scalar held on the site resulted in amazing relief. I also had a dime size pressure wound which healed up in two weeks time. this thing has many, many settings all kinds of applications even for sleep and is an amazing piece of technology. I have to pack and get ready for a business trip to Baltimore M.D. and when I get back I will send you more info. Creekwater

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• By Learning1
• Posted July 9, 2009 at 11:20 am
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Creekwater,

It is good to hear you have had some results using a laser. I don't know what is technically behind the Scalar wave laser, other than what is posted on their web site and in their adds. They have several frequencies for their laser diodes, and they have a number of pulsed settings. And they also have their enhancers (or separate lasers you can plug in), one being their 808 nm laser. 808 nm to 810 nm seems to be the light frequency which seems to be the common denominator so far for the results with in the animal tests and in the antedotal examples for Spinal Cord injuries.

The main laser that I have, and have experience (non-SCI) with, and have heard of results from - both non-SCI and a few SCI examples (other than the results of the numerous published studies I've read - all which used regular laser technology - not soliton) is the Q1000, plus their 808 enhancer (which is really just a 808 laser that is powered from the Q1000 - the only difference is the quartz crystal tip, which apparently affects the wave in some way). Their 808 is the the one with the antedotal results from Indiana that I'm still trying to catch someone to confirm exactly what progress was made, and what techniques were tried. And really an 808 should be an 808, as long as the same amount of energy and locations are used.

The Q1000 has some features similar to the Scalar Wave, and some differences. At a first glance the Scalar wave laser seems to have more features, but I can't tell from the information if the Scalar wave laser has the key feature that the Q1000 has - soliton wave technology, with its greater penetration and substantially lower energy loss as it penetrates. It may have this, and simply not be mentioning because of patent reasons, or it may not. If not, it has all the benefits of regular laser technology anyway. Regular laser technology relies on power to get the laser signal into the body. The disadvantage for some uses is that, since much of the signal is absorbed on its way in, there is a heavy loss of energy the deeper you go. For example, Dr. Anders' study on rats indicates that only 6% of the energy actually made it to the far side of the spinal column (if I've read the results right). Soliton technology apparently uses computer syncronization to form constructive interference, making it so the laser waves hae much more amplitude in the waves, penetrate deeper, and have less energy loss as the waves penetrate, making it so a much large portion of the wave energy makes it to the deeper areas, and it relies on cellular resonance rather than a simple energy transfer.

Generally the Scalar wave laser looks like a good laser, with many good features, and like I mentioned, other than the soliton technology, it seems to have more features than the Q1000. Both the Scalar wave laser and the Q1000 have several laser diode frequencies itself, and pre-programmed pulsed settings. It sounds like the Scaler wave laser has in many ways tried to be a copy of the Q1000, and tried to better it where they could, but may be limited in some features by patent considerations, and not knowing some of the propiertary information imbedded in some of the tried and true combinations.

The areas where the Scalar wave laser is better is that it has a few more laser diodes (16 rather than the 12 the Q1000 has), it comes with more programmed settings (100 rather than 3 or 7 - at least some of the Q1000 tried and true modes integrated modes can not be there exactly because they are propietary ones, but they may have close equivalents), you also have 100 extra modes you can program yourself (how much benefit this is to the average user has yet to be shown, but the option is there), and is user programmable (the Q1000 currently has to be programmed at their factory, though it sounds like they will be releasing a program and cable later this year that will allow user programming of 4 of the modes). Even without soliton technology, many of the laser combinations should work well - the only question is how much penetration is acheived, and how much energy is lost, for deeper problems.

Clearly any option is worth looking into. And it is great to see that you began getting more sensation using the your laser. Did you use just their base Scalar wave laser, or did you use their 808 nm plug in laser? Where did you use it - on the site of your spinal injury (to try to get past scar tissue & wake up neurons, etc), or on some other part of your body (to stimulate that part of the body to get neurons working)? For how long, and how often? Those are all things that can be important for someone considering trying a laser themselves.

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