Vitamin k2

• By kwiyet1
• Reply 3445992
• October 10, 2012 at 1:54 am
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I take both since all the data regarding each is too confusing for me to choose one or the other. I take MK7 two days a week 100 mcg for its bone strengthening and cardiovascular qualities and MK4 every day 5 mg twice daily for its mostly bone strengthening qualities. Some people don't tolerate MK7 due to sleeplessness or heart palpitations, but I don't have any problems with it even when I took it daily before adding MK4. MK4 supposedly helps some people with sinus congestion and skin problems, but I haven't experienced those added benefits so far. Maybe I should increase my dose of MK4.

• By Gloriaz
• Reply 3446382 · In reply to 3445992 by kwiyet1
• October 10, 2012 at 8:39 am
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Thanks for a reply! I was diagnosed with osteoporosis and am trying to avoid fosamax etc, Your reasoning makes sense. I will try the same. Hopefully taking calcium, magnesium, vitamin d and vitamin k will help my bones. I also take fish oil and coq10. According to Dr. Weil vitamin k2 max should only be 100 mcg. That's why I was confused because i couldn't find any dosage that low, just 5 mg.

• By charella
• Reply 3446856
• October 10, 2012 at 11:17 am
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I just ordered only the MK4 as I had the heart palpitations and sleeplessness with the MK7. I did get good results with muscles and skin from the MK4 and am looking forward to starting it again. Charella

• By lilypads
• Reply 3446891
• October 10, 2012 at 11:27 am
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Studies were done using 15 MG (not mcg) of MK4 3x a day--a total of 45 mg daily. The studies showed an 63-81% reduction in fracture risk. But bone density did not increase. Apparently the MK4 increases collagen production, which improves the tensile strrength of bones.

http://www.dentalaegis.com/cced/2011/10/bridging-the-gap-between-osteoporos is-and-osteonecrosis-of-the-jaw-preventing-and-treating-bronj-with-mk4

Here are 2 opf the most exciting paragraphs, but the whole article is excellent:

"Importantly, in this study there were no differences in the number of falls sustained in the treatment group compared to the control group. Thus, it is concluded that MK4 reduces fractures independent of the number of falls someone sustains. The importance of this cannot be underestimated, since falling is the number one cause of osteoporotic fractures and death from osteoporosis. This decrease in fractures independent of the number of falls someone sustains is likely due to MK4 stimulating collagen production in bone and not simply adding calcium to bones. Collagen provides flexibility to the bone, while calcium provides rigidity. When someone falls, collagen allows the bone to absorb and disperse the force of the fall without breaking.

"A 2006 meta-analysis published in the Archives of Internal Medicine by Cockayne et al at the University of York in England evaluated clinical trials on MK4 and fracture risk.63 They identified 13 randomized, controlled trials of the effect of MK4 on osteoporosis. Of those, seven had fracture risk as an end point and thus were included in their meta-analysis. They concluded that 45 mg of MK4 decreases vertebral fracture by 60%, hip fracture by 73%, and all nonvertebral fractures by 81%."

Dr. Weill has not done his homework.

If you are going to take at least 2 mg daily of MK4, I don't think you need MK7. The advantage of MK7 is that it can be taken less frequently and is less expensive. If you take MK4, it's best to take it every 8 hours, since it only lasts 6-8 hours. MK7 lasts about 3 days.

• By lilypads
• Reply 3446920
• October 10, 2012 at 11:38 am
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Gloria, you need a few more minerals: manganese, boron, zinc, selenium, and iodine. And I strongly recommend looking into strontium citrate. Many of us have had great success with it, including Charella's mother, who is 95. I get all my minerals, except strontium, from NOW Full Spectrum Minerals CAPS.

Here are some success stories: http://www.inspire.com/groups/national-osteoporosis-foundation/discussion/s till-more-sucess-stories/

http://www.inspire.com/groups/national-osteoporosis-foundation/discussion/s trontium-vitamin-k2-and-osteoporosis-case-study-iii/?ref=as&asat=51951561

Vitamin C and the B vitamins are also important. And Vitamin A as retinol.

By the way, if you want to take 2mg of MK4 3x a day, you could take the Thorne drops, which provide 1 mg per drop. The least expensive way to take it is to buy the Complementary Prescriptions 15 mg MK4 from Amazon for $35 and open the capsules and divide the powder into 7 doses. Add to a spoonful of cocohut oil or olive oil. If you decide to take 15 mg 3x a day that's the least expensive brand.

• By Gloriaz
• Reply 3447342 · In reply to 3446920 by lilypads
• October 10, 2012 at 2:02 pm
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Thanks for the response! Sorry, I forgot to add that I take Essential 1 which includes all those but Iodine. Is Iodine important? I read the stories..............that's the encouragement I needed to purchase Strontium. Question.............when do you take Strontium, alone or at the same time as taking calcium.

• By lilypads
• Reply 3447546
• October 10, 2012 at 3:17 pm
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I take strontium in the middle of the night, when I get up to use the bathroom. It should be taken, ideally, 4 hours before and after calcium or calcium-containing foods.

• By sylvia6789
• Reply 3447794
• October 10, 2012 at 4:48 pm
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Hi Gloriaz,

Both Mk4 and Mk7 are beneficial. If you can, take both. As kwiyet1 mentioned, some folks have sleeplessness and/or heart palpitations with Mk7. As I recall, lilypads is one of the members who reported sleeplessness. The benefit of Mk7 (or problem) is that it stays in your blood stream for over 3 days. Thus, it can built up after taking a "reasonable" dosage daily, to a much higher level, after you take it daily for 14 days. Pls be aware of adverse side effects, not only immediately, but in 2 weeks.

I am also taking Vit. K in a similar manner as kwiyet1, pls see below:


Unlike kwiyet1, I did experienced visible benefits at the low dose of approx. 5 mg per day. My teeth, skin, sinus, etc. improved after just a few days ;-)

As lilypads said, if you are very diligent in taking Mk4, you may not need to take Mk7. Mk4 has shown to improve bone quality effectively, as well as reduce calcification. Mk7 has been shown to reduce calcification very well. I need to eat natto, or take some Mk7, as I am not diligent to take supplements daily, definitely not 3 times daily. In addition, I've had calcium deposits in my eyelids (before taking Vit. K2). I am much healthier now, after getting diagnosed with osteopenia ;-)

Hope this helps,

> Sylvia < < < < < <

• By lilypads
• Reply 3448003
• October 10, 2012 at 6:16 pm
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I believe the time for MK4 is 6-8 hours, not 4-6. 6-8 is what Lara Pizzorno says, and it's also my experience. I can feel when it kicks in, and I can feel when it wears off, about 8 hours later.

Yes, iodine is important for bones and for other systems. Hypothyroidism, which can be caused by low iodine, is one of the causes of osteoporosis. And selenium is important to take in conjunction with iodine.

I just noticed that Life Extension has a new supplement called Breast Health Formula, which contains 2 MG of iodine. That's a lot in the USA, though not in Japan, where people often get as much as 13 mg daily.

• By sylvia6789
• Reply 3448586 · In reply to 3448003 by lilypads
• October 10, 2012 at 9:57 pm
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Hi lilypads,

Thank you for informing us about LEF's new supplement. It looks good. I will get some in the near future.

As for the Mk4's circulation in our blood, it's good to know that you've experienced it wearing off about 8 hours later. It's an excellent data point. I've seen many graphs and they show various time, from 3 to 8 hrs after ingestion. The reason I selected 4 to 6 is mainly because my friend April 995 reported that she was fine, after 3 hours from the time of overdose with Mk4. April accidentally took over 20 mg of Mk4 at one sitting and got very dizzy. Fortunately, 3 hours later, April was fine.

Some of the graphs I 've seen:

(ref. http://www.healthyfellow.com/138/vitamin-K-and-heart-disease/
February 12, 2009 Written by JP Fanton)


(ref. Schurgers, L.J., Vermeer, C. Determination of phylloquinone and menaquinones in food: effect of food matrix on circulating vitamin K concentrations. Haemostasis 30 (2000) 298-307.)


The above Figure shows Serum vitamin K2, Mk4, in lipoprotein fractions 0–48 h after intake, in nmol/l. ○, TGRLP; ■, LDL; □, HDL. (ref. Schurgers and Vermeer, “Differential lipoprotein transport pathways of K-vitamins in healthy subjects.” http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304416502001472

Thanks again, lilypads, I will modify my chart to 4 to 8 hrs, before I post it again.

> Sylvia < < < < < <

• By lilypads
• Reply 3448740
• October 10, 2012 at 10:54 pm
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Hi Sylvia,

From what I've read, there's no upper limit for MK4 because it hasn't been shown to have any negative effects, even at high doses. I wouldn't be worried at all about taking 20 mg myself. But April is very sensitive and has atypical reactions to many substances.

Since I am now in the third week of my experiment taking 15 mg 3x a day, I have noticed that the 15 mg does take longer to wear off than the Carlson's 5 mg did. It may even be lasting 9-10 hours. That may be a benefit of a "loading dose."

On your last graph, I don't see the icon for MK4 in the key. Do you know which symbol represents MK4?

• By sylvia6789
• Reply 3448933 · In reply to 3448740 by lilypads
• October 11, 2012 at 12:36 am
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Hi lilypads,

It's good to know that the Vit. K2, Mk4 will stay longer if you take more. As for me, I am similar to April in sensitivity. So, I will stay conservative and take the low dose, especially since I can see the benefits at the low dosage.

Back to the graphs . . . . . .

On the last graph, all the data points are for Mk4, Schurgers et all was showing the serum amount in various lipoprotein fractions of the blood, i.e. TGRLP is the triacylglycerol-rich lipoprotein fraction, LDL = low-density lipoprotein, and HDL is the high-density lipoprotein.

btw, there are other graphs in the paper's Fig. 2. which I didn't include, for Vit. K1 and Mk9, etc. " Fig. 2. Serum vitamin K in lipoprotein fractions 0–48 h after intake. A, C, and E represent serum vitamin K in lipoprotein fractions of, respectively, vitamin K1, MK-4, and MK-9 in nmol/l. B, D, and F represent the serum lipoprotein profile of K1, MK-4, and MK-9 as a percentage of the sum of all lipoprotein fractions. ○, TGRLP; ■, LDL; □, HDL. " I only posted part C of Fig. 2.

Hope that clarify the results.

> Sylvia < < < < < < <

• By lilypads
• Reply 3448982
• October 11, 2012 at 1:15 am
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Thanks. Now I get it. So how much MK4 was ingested? I see there was quite a bit remaining at about the 8-hour mark. I guess I should click on your link.

• By Gloriaz
• Reply 3449419 · In reply to 3448586 by sylvia6789
• October 11, 2012 at 8:52 am
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That chart is very informative. I read where potassium is very important for bone health, but noticed that it is not one of the ingredients in my vitamins and minerals that i take. Does anyone take potassium? Why wouldn't it be included if it is important?

• By Gloriaz
• Reply 3449474 · In reply to 3448003 by lilypads
• October 11, 2012 at 9:06 am
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Hi lilypads:

I just ordered vitamin k2 mk4, but could only find it in 5 mg. You mentioned that you can feel when it kicks in, please explain.


Thanks

• By Tango02
• Reply 3450980 · In reply to 3449419 by Gloriaz
• October 11, 2012 at 6:01 pm
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The problem with plain potassium is that its too dangerous unless you medically know what you are doing, so doses are limited to under 100 mg. The best doses come from eating fruit like apples or drinking orange or tomato juice. You can also use Morton's Lite salt in cooking which is 50% potassium and 50% sodium chlorides as a better balanced electrolyte supplement.

• By sylvia6789
• Reply 3450987 · In reply to 3449419 by Gloriaz
• October 11, 2012 at 6:03 pm
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Hi Gloriaz,

I've updated the chart, to include lilypads's experience in how long Mk4 stays in the blood stream:


The above chart supersedes the earlier one I posted yesterday (Oct 10).

As for Potassium, you are correct. It is important and it is in Dr. Susan Brown's 20 Key bone nutrition: http://www.betterbones.com/bonenutrition/20keybonenutrients.aspx

However, most multi-vit don't have potassium. My Life Extension Mix has a small amount. This is most likely because we can get potassium rather easily from food.

Although the "Estimated Minimum Requirement is 2000 mg/day for adults" per Dr. Decuypere and Dr. S. Brown's recommended intake for better bones is over 4000 mg, we can get that amount from food and drink. For example, an 8 oz. class of Coconut water has over 500 mg of Potassium. A banana has 422 mg, avocado has 975 mg, 1 oz (23 whole nuts) of raw almonds has 200 mg, 6 oz of beef has 393 mg, and a glass of cow milk has 322 mg. (ref. http://www.health-alternatives.com/minerals-nutrition-chart.html for Potassium amounts by Dr. Decuypere, except for the Coco water info, which I read from the container.)

Pls check out Dr. Decuypere's nutrition charts. They are colorful and cool.

Hope this helps,

> > Sylvia < < < < < <

• By littlebitnhou
• Reply 3451168 · In reply to 3448740 by lilypads
• October 11, 2012 at 7:21 pm
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Hi Lilypads: I'm curious what you feel when you say you feel the MK4 kick in????

• By sylvia6789
• Reply 3451347 · In reply to 3450980 by Tango02
• October 11, 2012 at 8:33 pm
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Hi Tango,

Good points. A medium apple provides 195 mg of Potassium, a med. orange contains 237 mg and one medium tomato contains 292 mg.
(http://www.health-alternatives.com/fruit-nutrition-chart.html). Using the Lite salt is also a good idea. I also like Real Salt.

Hi lilypads,

The people were using oral intake of 2 μmol of oil-solubilized preparations.

Hi littlebitnhou,

As for me, when I have sinus problems, I feel the Mk4 "kick in" within an hour of using 1 drop of Thorne liguid. Sometimes, I used 2 drops for 2 mg. If I feel bad, I use 3 mg. It's much better than using OCEAN Saline Nasal spray. I believe T2t also uses Mk4 to take care of his sinus troubles. The teeth, skin, ... benefits take approx. a week to notice.

Take care,

> Sylvia < < < < < <

• By lilypads
• Reply 3451403
• October 11, 2012 at 8:57 pm
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I have chronic right-sided sinus congestion. I can feel it clear within about 15 minutes of taking MK4. That was true when I was only taking 1300 mcg, and it was true when I was taking 5 mg. About 7-8 hours later, it wears off and I once again feel the congestion. I can breathe, but not as easily. Now that I'm taking 15 mg at a time, it seems to last 8-10 hours before wearing off.