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Vegetarian diet weakens bones

drizzit
0 Recommendations

Interesting research


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090702/hl_afp/healthfooddietaustraliavietnam

Explore topics in this discussion:

Exercise Heart disease Cancer Autoimmune diseases Acid reflux Forteo Nexium GERD Fractures Reclast Depression Osteoporosis Stress fractures Cortisol Stress

22 replies

SequoiaHealth

Hi drizzit:
This is the most interesting line of the article.

Nguyen, who is from Sydney's Garvan Institute for Medical Research and collaborated on the project with the Pham Ngoc Thach University of Medicine in Ho Chi Minh City, said the question of whether the lower density bones translated to increased fracture risk was yet to be answered.

It is always important to remember that a lower bone density does not necessarily translate into bones that are weaker. Weaker would imply more easily fractured and bone density alone cannot tell us that.

I advocate that my clients follow a 50% fruits and vegetables diet high in antioxidants and fiber not a vegetarian or vegan diet.

Thanks for the post.

Woody McMahon

debbie59

I'm coming to the conclusion that diet alone plays just a part of the cause of osteoporosis. A smaller and smaller part. I've eaten, what most people would consider, a very healthy diet all my life and still ended up with the disease. Maybe it's the other things we do to ourselves like drinking too much alcohol and fizzy pops, smoking or other underlining conditions that don't enable our body to absorb calcium properly. Even our ethnicity such as being asian or northern european play a huge part. Not to mention most peoples deficiency of vitamin D. As far as vegetarian or vegan, to each his own, but the last time I checked a biology book we are omnivores. A little bit of everything.

rmchavin

Dear drizzit:

Thanks for sharing this Yahoo News article. The first defect of this article is that they go by bone density and not by fracture risk. It is very common for vegetarians to have somewhat lower bone densities throughout their lives compared to omnivores but end their lives with fewer fractures compared to omnivores. The second defect of this article is that they don't describe who these vegans were or what they ate. Did they eat mostly vegetables and fruits or mostly just grains? A large percentage of the world's "vegetarians" are too poor to afford fruits and vegetables so they eat mostly just wheat and become deficient in the amino acid, lysine, which is plentiful in most plant-source foods and in all animal-source foods but is deficient in wheat. Anyhow, the reason why so many vegans have poor bone health is that they are undernourished, especially in calcium and protein. Therefore, vegans can have BETTER bone health than omnivores if they consume enough calcium and protein. Thin Americans and Europeans who are vegans need to be especially concerned that they might be undernourished, especially in calcium and protein. The best way to solve the calcium problem is to swallow one 600 mg calcium pill daily. The best way to solve the protein problem is to do what the Chinese do in China. (1) Eat lots of vegetables, (2) Eat lots of soybeans and soy products, and (3) If you don't mind losing your "vegan" status, eat some high-fat fish. The following 2 web addresses confirm that the Chinese (in China) eat more vegetables than any other nation: http://www.agrsci.unibo.it/wchr/wc1/segret7.html http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/english/200110/28/eng20011028_83348.html Finally, the following study confirms that the Chinese (in China) have relatively good bone health compared to people living in the Western nations: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19415374 Note that the osteoporosis rate in Hong Kong, where the Chinese eat a more British-influenced, Western diet, was not that much lower than the osteoporosis rates in the Western nations. Note also that the osteoporosis rates in both mainland China and Taiwan were much, much, much lower than the osteoporosis rates in the Western nations. This is despite the fact that, as debbie59 just mentioned, asian ethnicity would put you at increased risk of developing osteoporosis, especially if you lived in and ate the burned-meat-affording U.S. diet. Finally, don't forget that the Chinese drink lots of green tea.

SequoiaHealth

Hi debbie59:
You are right. Diet alone will not do it. But diet does make-up an important piece of 6 lifestyle areas that are crucial to fixing this condition. The one component I rarely hear people talk about is #3. High stress living has a huge negative effect on your hormones and consequently your overall bone health. The 6 lifestyle changes we recommend to our clients are:

1. A diet that contains 50% fruits and vegetables. Fruits and veggies contain greater amounts of water and minerals with generally lesser amounts of animal protein.
2. Adequate water intake for maximum hydration. Water is very important in helping the kidneys regulate pH and detoxify the body.
3. Daily stress reduction activities. This helps lower cortisol and homocysteine levels reducing calcium loss.
4. Year round vitamin D3 levels in the 50-80 ng/mL (or 125-200 nM/L).
This should be confirmed by 25-hydroxyvitamin D testing.
6. Sufficient weight bearing exercise to stimulate balance and muscle growth which is essential for bone strengthening determined

If you need more specific information you can contact me at anytime time through our osteoporosis lifestyle program at BeBoneStrong@sequoiahealth.com.
Woody McMahon

debbie59

Hi Woody,
I agree with you. As far as diet, mine has been pretty much what you say it should be. It's also what my mother told me and feed me as a child. That was along time ago as I am almost 60. As most people, in my early twenties I went astray but as my own children came around I became my mom. Not unusual. Diet is important for more than just bone health, It's your total health. The same goes for exercise and staying away from all the nasty habits ( smoking, Alcohol, drugs etc. ) but there are things we have no power over. I sat and thought of what I normally eat in a week and even though I love a nice steak and other meats, it only constitutes maybe 20% of my total diet. Stress is also a biggy for TOTAL health. Have a happy 4th!!

debbie59

Drizzit,
You have a nice 4th too. I don't think Woody was disagreeing with you. The article you pointed out didn't suggest we all become total meat eaters and the idea that we should be totally the other way is not natural for humans either. We are omnivores.

rmchavin

Dear SequoiaHealth:

I searched the PubMed data base for any scientific studies that related osteoporosis to stress but I was largely unsuccessful. There were a huge number of studies on "stress fractures" and several very recent studies on "oxidative stress" from free radicals in our diet causing osteoporosis. However, the only studies that might relate osteoporosis to mental stress were confusing studies like this one done by Ohio State University: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11268419 Is your belief that stress reduction would be beneficial for reducing the risk of future bone fractures based mostly on your personal experience with your clients or are there websites that you could share with us that could verify your belief in the desireability of stress reduction for osteoporosis prevention?

SequoiaHealth

Hi rmchavin:
High stress living is associated with increased levels of cortisol, CRP and homocystein in the blood. I have included a link that talks about homocystein as it relates to hip fracture.
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/350/20/2042

Stress has already been linked to cancer, heart disease and many of the autoimmune diseases. It would only make logical sense that it affects your bones as well. Stress changes your physiology so it will change your body’s ability to heal, repair and grow new bone.

All of my current clients that have osteoporosis do score very high on the standard stress tests we have given them.

Woody

SaraMeeks

Wow, I'm getting in on this one rather late.
What I am reading more and more is how important the QUALITY of bone is. BMD is the QUANTITY and, although important, is not the whole picture. So far, according to what I've been able to find, bone quality consists of the architecture, mineralization and microcrack density within bone--all of which can't be measured non-invasively.
Certainly, diet and other lifestyle factors, including stress, would play a huge role in bone quality. One think I did read was the necessity for good hydration so I am always telling my patients and students to "drink more water."
AND, let's not forget that this condition begins very early in life--to my way of thinking even before birth. The seeds are laid early in life for the manifestation of bone health later on. We should be targeting women of child-bearing age so they bear healthy children (there are babies being born with osteoporosis) and also children (before adolescence) to lead lifestyles that build healthy bones...........now there's a challenge give the state of our increasingly sedentary, no-recess, no-free-play, soda-drinking, fast-food-eating populations of today.
Just a few thoughts to mull over.

debbie59

I agree Sara,
My mom nursed me Which was unusual,I'm told,in the 1940's. I'm wondering if maybe there are so many of us in a group whose mothers were raised either during the depression or WWII. I know my mom didn't have access to good nutrition. I also worry about the children today being raised on fast food and fizzy pops. There have been a lot of very young women, in their 20's and 30's with severe osteoporosis that have made posts to this line. This is disturbing.

debbie59

As I remember, The last meaningful post I made was to SaraMeeks and the effect of poor nutrition with depression era and WWII people. I still would like to explore this as it seems this disease from there on has gotten worse. My grandmother and her sisters did not have bone problems. They were born in scotland and were redheaded large women. Pre-depression, WWII. I just find this interesting. We, today have whatever we choose to eat and it seems we choose the wrong things.

nobonesaboutit

I have not heard of any probs w/osteo in places like India where many people are vegetarians. I've never had a patient who was Indian and vegetarian have probs w/ osteo. Just an observation. Lots of sunshine in India, and what about Africa? You don't see them walking around with crutches and casts. Though many of them are meat eaters, their diets are much more deficient of what our country calls a balanced diet. My son visited Italy and was so surprised at the vigor of the elderly there-many over 100 that were still sharp as tacks and nobody in battery-operated scooters-all walking-a lot and up hills regularly. There are soo many factors, to me it's obvious this country hasn't found all the answers and those countries don't have the American Dairy Council either! I don't know the answers either but we need to keep open minds. Vegetarians say that too much meat protein takes away from bone strength. I need to follow that suggestion above about reducing stress-I just can't worry about everything we don't have answers for! I'm for following the everything in moderation and what I can percieve as good advise.

reversiblecat

Nguyen, who is mentioned as being the researcher in this article, was in the news just a couple of months ago (April) with a study of Buddhist nuns that shows that the nuns (vegans) had the same bone density as others on non-vegetarian diets. In other words, their vegetarian diet had not hurt their bones at all.

So, which is it??

http://74.6.146.127/search/cache?ei=UTF-8&p=%22Tuan+Nguyen%22+dairy+garvan& y=Search&fr=yfp-t-501&u=esciencenews.com/articles/2009/04/16/vegan.buddhist .nuns.have.same.bone.density.non.vegetarians&w=%22tuan+nguyen%22+dairy+garv an&d=NSgmtBlMS8HR&icp=1&.intl=us

rmchavin

Dear reversiblecat:

Thanks for sharing this Yahoo news article which reported that vegan Buddhist nuns had just as good average bone density as omnivores. Although this appears to be very good news for vegans, Western vegans and thin people in general should not let their guard down regarding the need to consume adequate levels of protein and calcium. I suspect that part of the reason why the vegan Buddhist nuns had just as good average bone density as omnivores despite their moderately low intake of both protein and calcium is that they regularly ate soybeans and/or soy products and regularly drank green tea. I suspect that many or even most Western vegans and Western thin people are not eating much soy and not drinking much green tea. Here's a PubMed study first shared on NOF Inspire by PikaB in which British vegans had poor bone health probably because they weren't consuming enough calcium, protein, soy, and/or green tea: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17299475 Despite this research study in Britain, my final conclusion is that vegans can have much better bone health than omnivores by (1) swallowing one 600 mg calcium pill daily, (2) eating plenty of soy, not only for the high-amino-acid-quality protein but also for the isoflavones genistein, daidzein, and glycitein which have been shown to protect bone health, and (3) drinking plenty of green tea, which has been shown to protect bone health, possibly because it contains many flavonoids (polyphenols) which block the osteoblast-oxidizing effect of free radicals in our foods. Finally, if vegans don't mind losing their vegan status, they could improve their overall health even more by adding high-fat fish (preferably without any added salt) to their diet.

debbie59

Your bodies ability to absorb calcium is determined by some thyroid and parathyroid diseases, but mostly because of a lack of vitamin D3. Especially with the heavy use of sunscreens, which are needed to protect the skin from cancer and general ugly damage. My Dr. has me taking 4000IU's of vitamin D3 a day, along with magnesium, potassium and forteo. He checks my blood levels every 3 months for D and calcium levels. Last time he told me to cut the calcium in half. Too much in the blood. I don't know what else he checks for but they take 2 vials.

debbie59

I don't think Buddhist nuns wear sunscreen. They most likely get plenty of vitamin D.

rmchavin

Here's a study first shared by PikaB that compares the bone mineral density of vegetarian versus non-vegetarian adults in Taiwan. It confirms the good news for vegans from the earlier study of vegan Buddhist nuns: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18364334 However, the following study of vegan Buddhist nuns seems to contradict the earlier study of vegan Buddhist nuns: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9069160 The truth is that these studies go back and forth and will always keep contradicting each other. The only sane thing to do is to do what definitely works. (1) Drinking green tea definitely protects bone health. (2) Eating soybeans and soy products definitely protects bone health. (3) Eating certain specific plants will almost certainly protect bone health. These would include onions, green onions, leeks, garlic, parsley, Italian parsley, sweet bell peppers, tomatoes, cabbage, broccoli, berries, and all green vegetables. Prunes contain IGF-I, which both protects bone health and increases cancer risk. (4) Excessive consumption of animal-source proteins, especially red meats high in osteoblast-oxidizing free radicals, definitely damages bone health: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8610662

debbie59

Osteoporosis-D,
I read the article you listed in your last post, written by Jerry Donnelly. I took the article as a discussion about his problems with acid reflux (GERD) and his desire to not have to take drugs like omerprazole that inhibit acid production in the stomach but also destroy bone. He is trying a vegan approach as to find the culprits that cause the acid reflux. In his last paragraph he stated that he was not endorsing a vegan diet to treat osteoporosis or prevent it.

sdivas

I took from the article that eliminating foods and reintroducing the foods slowly may give us an idea of what we should avoid so that we don't suffer with Gerd or tummy troubles. Also, small lifestyle changes can make a big difference in the quality of life; his by using a wedge pillow, eating small meals, sleeping on one side. Bottom line, it all depends on how much a person is determined and willing to do to have quality of life and minimize health problems. Keeping a health/food/daily living journal can be very helpful.

Osteoporosis-D

Hi Sdivas:

Improvements in bone density don't appear until 2-3 years after a program is initiated. I was suprised to read that 50% of people stop using their medications after one year. I wonder how many people even begin a comprehensive program (diet, supplements and exercise) must less continue it.

I have started a daily exercise regime and am absolutely delighted with how much better I feel after two weeks. I am also enjoying more leafy greens (rapini and kale) in my diet and am treating myself to kefir with blueberries and raspberries in the morning. (Kefir is a very yummy, natural form of yoghurt that is widely available.)

I fully expect my DXA results to improve and I am having lots of fun along the way.

I look forward to hearing about your program!

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