High doses of MK4 for men

• By LynH
• Reply 3498859
• October 29, 2012 at 11:56 am
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I'm sorry I am not in a position to give you advice, but a couple of questions that come to mind are: I assume that you were given warfarin by your doctor for a DVT, has the doctor now taken you off the warfarin? Why do you want to take vitamin K2? Have you been told that some of your vessels are getting narrow with calcium deposits? If so, you need to investigate whether you really want MK-4, or rather MK-7 which is more associated with stopping the buildup of calcium in the arteries. What does your doctor suggest?

Vitamin K1 is the form which is associated with blood clotting and wouldn't be given to you unless you had overdosed on warfarin. I'm sure that other Forum members will be able to give you good advice, but if you have a history of blood clots, you need to keep in touch with your doctor and don't just go down the path of self medication, if there is any risk of you having another clotting episode.

• By chalk
• Reply 3498960
• October 29, 2012 at 12:24 pm
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I appreciate you coming on this forum and understand asking about this supplement but in your situation off warfarin, altho many of our forum members take this supplement I wouldnt asssume any of us are experts on it. There isnt some conspiracy that the medical association keeps us from the knowledge that the mk4 or mk7 protects arteries from potential clots and strokes. Lyn is so right to refer you back to your doctor. In your situation, I wouldnt experiment based on what some of us take for our bones, please. You can write to cardiac or cardiovascular experts if you dont wish to set up visits or use your own dr. I honestly believe you shouldnt get cardiac info about high doses of anything from an anecdotal osteoporosis message board. Good luck with all your improved health goals.

• By lilypads
• Reply 3499362
• October 29, 2012 at 2:55 pm
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There are 2 men on this site whom you might want to contact by sending a friend request: torn2tears, who had 2 heart attacks before age 50 and now has stents and uses MK4, and Phil6200, who had severely occluded arteries. I'm not sure if he uses MK4. I believe so.

You might also want to read the book "Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox." Since the author lives in Canada, where selling more than 120 mcg of any type of Vitamin K is prohibited, she does not discuss MK4, but the book contains much valuable info about K2.

As far as I know, MK4 has no negative effects, so in the US there is no upper limit on how much can be sold/taken.

• By lilypads
• Reply 3499377
• October 29, 2012 at 3:00 pm
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Here is a post by Phil6200 from a couple months ago:


"This is an excerpt from a letter I sent to my heart doctor:

July 23, 2012

Dear Dr.:

The purpose of this letter is to maximize the productivity of our limited face time, by providing you with some of the results of my research into the relationship between LDL, K2 (mk4) and calcium. I would like this information to serve as a starting point for discussion in our upcoming September 28th 2012, 2:30 meeting.

My most recent Lipid Profile results dated 7/12/12 are as follows:
Total Cholesterol: 253 (<200)
Triglycerides: 96 (<150)
HDL Cholesterol: 54 (>45)
LDL Cholesterol: 180 (<125)

My LDL Cholesterol: 180 is significantly higher than previously measured as I recall, but I am currently in Michigan without access to my old records until about 9/7/12. (The higher than normal LDL level directly corresponds with onset of my current daily consumption of 45 mg of K2 (mk4)) that began about 3 months ago.

LDL
Your focus on LDL as a key contributor to my atherosclerosis was right on the money.

Taking that focus one step further, I discovered something that I’m sure you already knew i.e. “that in more recent years, scientists discovered two types of LDL cholesterol:
• One type consists of large, fluffy LDL particles (Type A) that appear to have no potential to cause atherosclerosis or the development of plaques on the large or medium-sized arteries.

• The other type (Type B) consisting of small, dense LDL particles that are strongly associated with arterial plaques and this can increase the risk of heart disease.”

You can determine which type of LDL you have by computing the ratio of Triglycerides to HDL cholesterol:
• If the ratio is less than 2, (mine is 1.759), you have predominantly large, fluffy LDL particles that are not going to do you much harm.
• If my ratio had been greater than 4, I would have had a lot of small, dense LDL particles that can accelerate the development of atherosclerotic plaques. Footnote (1)
The importance of this TG/HDL ratio was confirmed by studies from the Harvard Medical School. This research found that the higher your TG/HDL ratio, the more likely you would be to have a heart attack. How much more likely? In one study, those with the highest ratio had sixteen times the risk of those with the lowest ratio. Footnote (1)
Per Wikipedia (Low-density lipoprotein):

• “It is possible that the LDL cholesterol concentration can be low, yet LDL particle number high and cardiovascular events rates are high.

• Correspondingly, it is possible that LDL cholesterol concentration can be relatively high, (as it is in my case), yet LDL particle number low and cardiovascular events are also low. “

VITAMIN K2 (mk4) & CALCIFICATION
In the Rotterdam study, a large European clinical trial following 4,807 subjects aged at least 55 over a 7-10 year period; researchers found that K2 significantly reduced the risk of cardiovascular disease by 57%, death from all causes by 26%, and severe aortic calcification by 52%. Footnote (2)

The calcification of the heart and arteries has a major impact on your cardiovascular health, independently of fatty deposits. While this calcification was once believed to be a “passive” process, in which calcium, (which is not properly incorporated into the bones), simply seeps into the arteries, careful molecular studies of these deposits have shown that the calcification process follows the regulated process of bone formation and repair. The smooth muscle cells present in healthy blood vessels develop from “multipotent mesenchymal cells” – precursor cells which are present in blood vessels to renew the smooth muscle cell populations, but which can also become bone-forming osteoblasts if they’re exposed to the relevant growth factors. Footnote (2)

It is now clear that vascular calcification is the result of a breakdown in the regulation of the development of multipotent cells, resulting in the creation of “calcifying vascular cells.” Substances which stimulate the development of osteoblasts and of bone matrix are found in atherosclerotic plaques, but not in healthy vasculature. As a result, atherosclerotic lesions and calcified heart valves contain matrix vesicles and all of the major components of osteoid, the early bone matrix formed by osteoblasts. In fact, calcified blood vessels actually contain ectopic bone tissue. Footnote (2)

Matrix Gla Protein (MGP), a vitamin K-dependent protein which is biosynthesized by smooth muscle cells in blood vessels, prevents multipotent mesenchymal cells from developing into osteoblasts. It does this by inhibiting Bone Morphogenic Protein-2 (BMP-2), a protein which triggers this abnormal cellular development and which is found in calcifying blood vessels. Footnote (2)

PERSONAL EXPERIENCE
When I mentioned my lack of morning erections prior to the insertion of my stent, you acknowledged being aware of the phenomena. After my stent was inserted, morning erections returned indicating to me a renewed/increased blood flow to the area. As time went by however, erections once again slowly went away. About 3 months now into taking the K2 (mk4) not (mk7) my erections began routinely returning, indicating to me that the K2 was eliminating the calcium buildup that was causing a reduced blood flow in my arteries.
LAB REQUEST
Would it be possible to obtain a lab slip containing Vitamin D3, K2 (Osteocaicin, S), Magnesium, Calcium and Lipoprotein (A), in addition to the Lipid profile, prior to my next appointment? The lab slip I currently have does not contain these additional items.

I really appreciate your assistance, time, patience and willingness to engage in an open two-way conversation.


Sincerely,


Phil


1) The Heart Attack Culprit: Cholesterol Isn't to Blame - Dr. Barry Sears - former research scientist at the Boston University School of Medicine and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
http://www.cbn.com/health/NaturalHealth/drsears_heartattack.aspx

2) J Vasc Res. 2003 [Epub ahead of print]. Epub 2003 Dec 03.

Tissue-Specific Utilization of Menaquinone-4 Results in the Prevention
of Arterial Calcification in Warfarin-Treated Rats.

Spronk HM, Soute BA, Schurgers LJ, Thijssen HH, De Mey JG, Vermeer C.
Department of Biochemistry, Cardiovascular Research Institute
Maastricht, University of Maastricht, Maastricht, The Netherlands

http://www.mombu.com/medicine/heart/t-menatetrenone-protects-against-arteri al-calcification-more-evidence-diabetes-warfarin-calcium-in-vitro-aorta-221 3312.html "