Does Vitamin D pull calcium from the bones?

I'm at my wit's end and hoping someone can help me.

There is so much conflicting info online and in books, I'm just about ready to give up searching, but thought I'd turn to you wise folks here for advice.

Here's my problem:

Over the past 10-12 years or so, it seems like almost every time I've take vitamin d, usually with some sort of calcium and or cal/mag supplement, I will develop what seem to be either bone spurs, or calcium deposits in my neck -- I get this "crunchy", "crackling" and/or snapping sounds when I turn my head from side to side. My teeth also seem to loosen, or at least shift around a little -- at least my bite shifts.

I'm interested in vitamin d mainly for it's overall benefits. I've had CFS for 12 1/2 years now and have been disabled for the last 6, and have become increasingly worse this past year (although I had some better days this summer when I got out for 15 minutes in the mid-day sun.

But overall, I've become so weak, so disabled that I can only leave my house 3 times a week, and use the 'energy' on those days to walk to the grocery store and back. Trust me, 3 blocks each way seems like 3 miles.

I've read studies where vitamin D deficiency is linked to not only bone issues, but also muscle weakness and immune deficiency...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19534335

...but almost every time I take it (at least with calcium/magnesium, even k2), I seem to keep developing these 'spur/deposit' problems. Happened again just in the last 2 weeks. I was told to take 4,000iu of 'd', 3x a week, plus 600mgs calcium/w 800iu's 'd' every day, 2x day, plus 1 mag glycinate with that, and also 1 5mg of vitamin K2. After about 10 days I had to stop...my neck was just snapping and 'crunching' like crazy. I've been eating yogurt for the last few days, the crunching sound has lessened...

Sorry, I'm rambling. :)

I guess my question(s) are:

Does vitamin D pull calcium from the bones (and jaw) causing spurs, loosening of teeth, etc.?

It it's not the vitamin D, could it be the calcium supplements that are causing these 'spurs'?

Is it safe to take vitamin d without the calcium supplements? (Dr. James Dowd M.D. has suggested it is, as long as vitamin D levels are above 35, but again, I've read that others (Krispin Sullivan) say it should NEVER be taken w/out the minerals. I've emailed Dr. Cannell many times, with no answer, and I haven't seen it addressed on his site.)

Finally, if you've had this problem, how were you able to correct it?

MANY THANKS in advance,

Dan

p.s. I haven't had my 'd' checked since last January, when it was 32-something, but will have it checked on Thursday. Parathyroid issues have always checked out okay.)

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Hi Dannybex ,
I have never heard that D3 takes calcium from the bones, but everyone is different!
I notice you take 600 mg aday of cal, which I belive you need 1200 mg of calcium aday. Also 600 iu of d3, is not enough.
What does your Dr. tell you to take?
Although Drs. do not get much schooling in Nutrition in med school. It seems up to use to figure it out.

I had heel spurs, and a bone spur in my throat. My Ent. Dr. said the throat spur was caused from a car accident when I was 20 yrs old!
I was not going to take another cortazone (sp?) shot in my heel again. Its bad for my bones, never leaves the body, & just floats around..

That said, I searched the internet for something for my heel spurs besides drugs. I found a vitamin called "Acid-A-Cal". the best price was on amazon.
I didn't take the amount it called for, but after about 2 to 3 months, the spurs & horrible pain in my heels went away! It must be a year now, and so far , so good. I stopped taking it after the pain went away, and have not taken it since.

With Osteoporosis we need to take D3 not D..My D3 says its in Olive oil.
My Dr. believes everyone should be taking 5000, to 6000 IU, of D3 aday for adults, unless you need more !

I'm not taking much Calcium anymore.
I take Magnesium, boron, silica, Folic acid, D3, Omega 3, etc. I Make a Orgainic veggie and fruit smoothie in the morning. I think its better if we could get more of our vitamins from organic foods instead of pills.
I can't take K2 as it gives me leg cramps! Too many Green veggies give me leg cramps also!..

My wrists crunches. I went to a Arthrits Dr. I have Osteoarthrits in my wrists, and neck. I hear the crunch in my wrists. It feels like there out of the shockets for a second, which really hurts. My Dr. gave me sometype of black velco wrap for wrist supports. When My wrists start to hurt, which I notice with the winter getting colder (live in California), I wear them more offen and they do help.

My Dr. sent me to a wonderful Physical Therapist for my Osteoporosis, that has made all the differents. I feel so much better and she has shown me what exercise I can do, and cannot do.

Is CFS a lung problem?

Don't ever give up. I know how you feel. It just takes some time to figure out how your body works and what can help you feel better, and you will.
If you look through this site, you will find how other people found how to get the recipe (so to speak) that was right for them.

I better go to sleep, its 3:40am here!
Take Care,
April

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Hi April,

Thanks for your kind reply -- I really appreciate it.

The feeling you have in your wrists is almost like the one I get in my neck. Sometimes the crunching sound has gotten so bad that it does almost feel like the spine is going to just snap out of it's 'socket', even though I know the spine doesn't have sockets. :)

I'm sorry to hear about your osteoarthritis in your wrists. You might be interested in reading 'The Vitamin D Miracle' by Dr. James Dowd -- he discusses several cases where his vitamin d and alkaline diet protocol helped people w/ osteoarthritis. I'm not sure if that's what I have or not, as it has gone away for months, sometimes years at a time, only to resurface seemingly when I take vitamin D and calcium supplements.

Maybe I'm not taking enough magnesium...maybe too much K2...I don't know...

Maybe I need to start with smaller doses of vitamin D, and work up slowly -- or a much larger dose, once a week...?

But again, some websites state that vitamin D pulls calcium from the bones, while others say it helps put calcium into the bones.

How can it do both?

Best regards,

Dan

p.s. CFS stands for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, also known as ME, or Myalgic Encephalomyelitis.

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This is interesting:

http://courses.washington.edu/bonephys/opcalcium.html

"Another patient used a calcium supplement from a health food store, and, when she came in to have her bone density measured, densities were seen near the spine. These changed position after a couple of hours, and were not seen on a scan several days later (after she switched to a chewable form of calcium)."

I emailed the professor to ask what she meant by 'densities' seen near the spine. She replied that they were "calcium pills that had not dissolved at all."

???

Any feedback would be sincerely appreciated.

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You will find varying recommendations on the internet due to patient variations and varying opinions and knowledge of physicians. Both doctors could be right under specific conditions. Education yourself here about the specifics.

The report of the moving calcium deposits are just the undissolved pills going through the intestines. The chewable pills simply dissolved like they should. I recall that pills are supposed to breakup reasonably fast when placed in water unless they are enteric coated.

The Vitamin D is not pulling calcium out of the bones, it primarily for absorbing calcium. Under the right conditions, the absorbed calcium may get into the soft tissues. This possibility leads to all sorts of less than useful opinions.
Sometimes patients who take 5000 IU of Vitamin D3 find that they are absorbing too much calcium. They may reduce their calcium or Vitamin D intake to get to the most optimal blood levels of each.

A good magnesium intake and Vitamin K2 intake will prevent calcium deposits and support bone building. Take magnesium equal to 50% to 100% the weight of your total calcium intake. Take a good multiple Vitamin K2 supplement, about 1500 mcg of the MK-4 fraction and about 120 mcg of the MK-7 fraction. Both of these help to control calcium and place it into the bones. Vitamin K2 has been found to help both in reducing the artery calcification of heart disease and in increasing bone strength to reduce fractures.

With a proper balance of everything and avoiding too much phosphorus you should have less problems with bone spurs.

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I just had a surprise the other day even though I run 3-5 miles 3 times a week, take 4,000 IU of Vitamin D3 and eat nothing but fat free or low fat foods.....my main artery to my heart was 95% blocked. Then came the calcium report, then came the the NIH report that said that the majority of plaque is made up of calcium.

********************************************************************
Discussion: In this pooled analysis of around 12 000 participants from 11 randomized controlled trials, calcium supplements were associated with about a 30% increase in the incidence of myocardial infarction and smaller, non-significant, increases in the risk of stroke and mortality.

(Scroll Down to Discussion)
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/341/jul29_1/c3691
Note: Logic says it is not just the supplements that you must consider, you must consider your total calcium intake from all sources, especially milk

From the National Institute of Health:
http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/mar2007/nhlbi-26.htm

Increased Blood Calcium and Vitamin D
http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2010/06/increased-blood-calcium-and-vitam in-d.html

Who Will Tell the People? It Isn't Cholesterol
http://www.lewrockwell.com/sardi/sardi69.html

Vitamin K
http://www.newswithviews.com/Howenstine/james59.htm

http://www.drpasswater.com/nutrition_library/Schurgers.html

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2000/feb00-report.html

http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2007/05/vitamin-k2-aspirin-fish-oil-and-b lood.html

_________________________________________________________________________IP 6 Info.

http://empiricalnutrition.com/?page_id=131

http://www.puritan.com/inositol-566/ip-6-inositol-hexaphosphate-005745?NewP age=1

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hello i was just watching something on tv last nite about vitiman d and it was quite interesting you can go to A site thay will give you free vitamin d for life all you got to do ispay shipping and handling i don't remember the site something like free vitamin d for life or call 1- 800-505-6370 they said alot of dr's won't tell us about it i watched it on on hallmark channel about 4 or 5 am if you can find any info about it that will help you i never looked for it yet but i am going to do that too my neck also cracks and crunches but i have n.f neurofibromatosis

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I would not take ANY!!!!! extra folic acid as most all grain products are fortified with it and you get 400 in any vitamin. Excess folic acid causes growth of polyps in the colon leading to increased risk of colon cancer. Nutrition Action has even went so far as suggesting people take a vitamin only every other day because of it...

When I took 800 plus food and had 2 colon checks the first came back 3 polyps the second after taking excess folic acid for a year came back with 21.
Phil

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Thanks for your reply Tango -- I appreciate it. You're so right...different sites, different opinions/conclusions.

Sorry for my late reply -- I wanted to see if I'd notice any difference regarding the crackling/crunching sounds by stopping the calcium/vitamin d, before replying.

I did stop the vitamin D and the calcium (and was also taking some magnesium and vit K2, but continued those at smaller doses). The sounds decreased within a day or two -- at least no loud 'snaps' or clicks when I turn my neck, at least not as bad or often as before, but the last couple of days my feet have wanted to cramp...so I doubt if I'm getting enough calcium from one serving of yogurt.

I forgot to post a link to a site run by a local prof/MD at the U of W. On her calcium page, she suggests that certain types of calcium supplements can cause deposits, or as she calls them, "densities", as evidenced in the X-ray photos about halfway down the page:

http://courses.washington.edu/bonephys/opcalcium.html

Her logic doesn't really seem to make sense (to me) anyway, because she says the patient's "densities" disappeared a few days after she switched to a "chewable" form of calcium.

Does that make sense to you?

I'm going to try getting a different form/brand of vitamin K2 -- as some seem to last longer in the bloodstream(?), and also perhaps a different form of magnesium.

I appreciate your help and of course everyone's.

Dan

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Hi Phil,

Thanks for your reply, and for the links. Several of them were very helpful -- I appreciate you posting them.

I've seen your post about your blocked artery for a couple months now and have been wondering what you did or are doing to resolve that?

Best regards,

Dan

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Phil, it's my understanding that those studies were flawed because they used folic acid, which is a SYNTHETIC form of folate.

Many people, myself included, cannot break folic acid down into the forms of folate the body can utilize, so perhaps that's why they had negative results?

I just found out about this folic acid / folate conversion problem 2 weeks ago and have prescribed various forms of the bioavailable folates to correct the problem. Doc says it might take months, even a year...

Best regards,

Dan

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Hi Dannybex!
I have an article you need to read on folic acid.
You can't forward again though, as I believe it is copyrighted.
ppanicol@aol.com

Phil

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Hi Dannybex,
Those calcium densities were actually the undissolved calcium tablets going through the patients digestive system! Most calcium tablets will dissolve if placed in a glass of plain water. This is a kind of comedy report for doctors on bad calcium supplements.

Good to hear you are seeing progress. We are all slightly different so continue to adjust your vitamins and minerals for best results.

Your foot cramping could be caused by either too low calcium or a low magnesium level. You can try taking more of one or the other for a few days and alternating them to see if one is particularly effective.

I would suggest taking both forms of Vitamin K2, the MK-4 form is the best tested in medical trials while the MK-7 form appears responsible for much of the improvement of osteoporosis and heart disease in Japan. Not a lot is known about the differences, but other mammals like rats produce the MK-4 form naturally in their bodies. The MK-7 form is known to help prevent some cancers.

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Hi Tango,

It's really frustrating. Definitely a low calcium issue in some way, because if I stop calcium, then within 36 hours I'll get a STRONG cramping in one or both legs/feet.

But as you say, it could be magnesium too...and vitamin K2 as well.

I did finally get my vitamin d test results back on Friday -- it's low -- 30.1. So will be trying to up that, but it seems as I said above, if I up it too fast, then the twitching, etc., get worse. Some have suggested this means the vitamin d is pulling in more calcium, creating a magnesium deficiency...?

Anyway, had a TERRIBLE day last Wednesday/Thursday...after switching to calcium lactate w/magnesium citrate.

The 'lactate' form was recommended as best for calcium-related muscle issues. It did seem to help calm down the twitching, and maybe I took too much, but by the next day, I was SO ANXIOUS, SO IRRITABLE, and CRAMPED UP, that I seriously thought I would die. Sounds silly, but it was really scary. I stopped the cal lactate and haven't touched it since.

The other confounding factor is that I may have a heavy metal issue and fungal infection -- so the doc says that could be interfering with both calcium and esp magnesium uptake.

She prescribed something to chelate the metals from my gut, and also a different probiotic to deal with the fungal issue...will see how it goes.

MANY THANKS FOR YOUR REPLIES,

Dan

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I get cramps when I miss my magnesium supplement. I would suggest either temporarily eliminating the Calcium and Vitamin D or cutting your dosage in half for a while. I would also suggest, if you haven't already done it, a full blood workup with a 24 hour urine calcium test. If you haven't ruled out secondary causes already, you need to do that.

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Hi Millie,

Thanks for your reply.

I had a CBC a couple weeks ago...nothing unusual turned up there, except of course the low vitamin d.

But have never done a 24 hour urine calcium test -- what would that indicate?

In the past, whenever I would bolt out of bed with strong leg cramps, I would try magnesium, potassium, etc., but the only thing that would stop the cramps was some sort of dairy -- warm milk or yogurt.

Having said that, I tried a new cal/mag/etc powdered supplement last night -- one of those 'fizzes' that you mix up w/water (with slightly more magnesium than calcium) -- and after being all cramped up and tense yesterday -- I FINALLY felt some relaxation, and was able to sleep quite well, with only minor twitching in my feet and lower legs this morning.

Thanks so much for your input!

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