Urine backflow into the kidneys

OK, here's the scoop! I know the ureters have back flow valves so the urine does not back up into the kidneys. And I think they have some muscular action. Forgot a lot of my physiology. I have to plead insanity or senility here. JJ you can set me straight on this. In any event urine flows from the kidneys through the ureters into the bladder, neo or Indian or outside prosthetic device. So, what happens when you are hanging upside down, I used to hang from my feet from tree limbs (stopped doing that last year). So does the urine still get "pushed" into the bladder? I assume there is more to it that gravity feed right? So if you have an outside bag for example, how do you ensure that the urine does flow back to the kidneys? I know, I should probably know this, but just in case there is an electric suction pump in my bladder, I want to know more about it.

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Okay,,,my husband says it will still flow into the bag,,,if you had your bladder,,and you hung upside down,,,,it would flow to the bladder,,,,NO NEED FOR THE PLUNGER....thats what he said,,,,he spoke!!! thats amazing in itself,,,,,Ginger

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Your husband spoke? OMG! Well he must be right!

Anyone need a good plunger- free?

Tell your husband he's a cool dude, regardless of what you say!!!!

Thanks Ginger

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Try this Chey,
Drink 3 bottles of water in 10 minutes. Hang upside down from a tree limb. See if you can pee.
This is your research project for tomorrow.
Jack

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Jack you know a Texas never turns away from a challenge. Your on. I will post the results of my experiment tomorrow.

What really puzzles me though is how Canadians can gold in the snow.

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Urine flow from the kidneys via the ureters occurs somewhat like peristalsis in the small bowel, a coordinate wave of contraction that passes down the ureters (I think 30+ years since physiology, I'll try to remember to look this up and check, but I've been meaning to check on small bowel function for a week now, part of the problem is since leaving my office, books are still in boxes and I not too motivated to search for them yet). Thus, I think you can hang upside down and have flow into the reservoir, what it does from that point, I don't know. I suspect that upside down doesnt work well for flow into the external appliance for ileal conduits, since that is a gravity system (the part from the conduit into the bag). I'd try upside down with the neo, but it just sounds like a mess waiting to happen.

JJ

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Well, we both have the same problem, almost 20 years that I've been away from this stuff and most of my books are packed away somewhere. So is it the peristalsis like the esophagus or that in addition to valves like the ones in veins?

I'm going to try hanging upside down to pee tomorrow. But I don;t have a bag or neo so I'll have to have Bob help me with the neo and someone help me with the bag. Any takers?

Thanks JJ.

Thanks for the idea jack

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Very good we now have 2 in this research project.
1 with natural bladder
1 with neobladder
We will need an outside bagger, and pouch and the project will have perfect conditions for a full result project.
I would not recommend anyone to wear clothing, after you have drank the 3 bottles of water. Although an outside bagger could be save.
LMAO

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I'll get even with you for this Jack!

Where do you suggest I do this? In the dark of night?

Well, one way or the other, I'm gonna do it.

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Any further discussion regarding this research project should be under the heading:

The Cheyenne Urine Flow Test

I can't stop laughing
Oh, make sure you place a mattress under the limb in case you fall. Could cause extreme head ache without the mattress.
Still LMAO

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Gene would be the outside bagger,I will hang him upside down tonite,,,and let you know what happens,,

can you imagine,a plunger for a stoma,,a really little tiny plunger,,,,,,hummmm''

Ginger

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Okay, so I'm laughing too. Since I'm an Indiana Pouch, I don't think hanging upside down would do anything. Catheters would work the same to empty that balloon, right? Might have to change the flow direction just a tad. As to the back flow valves, I assume my ureters still have them.
But, not sure I can still climb a tree or hang from a limb.
Karego

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I'm going to wear my ATV helmet too. This should be very interesting!

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Well if Gene and Bob go along with this we could get it published! Likely the first empirical study done of this type.

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No, you are not of the hook. We have to have an Indiana pouch in this experiment. Len will help you I'm sure

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Hi,

Sorry Jack. You misunderstood I said I would not do the upside down test unless I can find a strong enough wind to divert the flow. It's better since neo, but still great danger of a mess. Sorry Cheyenne, I forgot to address the valve issue. Where the ureters enter the native bladder there is a valve like construction, but no valves in the ureters. The contractions are similar to esophagus, but different. The ureters have 3 muscle layers that are arranged differently than the muscle layers in the GI tract. When RC is performed the natural valves are no longer present and some surgeons try to simulate their function with "anti-reflux" constructions. Because other noted surgeons don't do this, I assume that the literature does not offer a clear advantage to this procedure. Again, NOT planning the upside down neo test at this point. However, if Jack will bring some AK down to provide a fluid load and will provide hazardous waste control, I'll definitely reconsider.

JJ

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The Cheyenne Urine Flow Test

Well then JJ, Bob has a Neo, he is now a Texan, so he will without a doubt participate in this test in your place. I am learning with the exception of Lynda, Texans seem to be a little crazy. If Bob and Cheyenne are an indication of the general population.
I could not sleep last night, just laughed, my wife thinks Cheyenne is beginning to rub off on me.
Jack

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OK, thanks JJ. Now I understand it. So there is a peristalsis action and back flow valves at the juncture of the ureters and the native bladder. So then if the native bladder is removed the reliance is on peristalsis, right? So how doe the absence of the valves impact on the kidneys after bladder removal, I mean could I still hang from a tree?

Hey Jack, If me I and Bob rub off on you that would be the best thing that could ever happen to you. But there is also Shiz, and he is really nutty! I like the idea of an AK load before doing the hang and pee.

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I think the main thing is that there is a higher risk of reflux (backward flow of urine from a continent diversion, don't know about ileal conduit, into the ureters with resultant dilation of the ureters and possibly the renal pelvis (collecting part of the kidney). This is also a potential route for bacteria to travel from diversions to the kidneys (may also occur with native intact bladder) and thus the concern about any symptoms even suggesting infection in folks with diversions.

JJ

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I think you are quite right. My experiment, which will be posted under a new journal entry, I think will make that point. I would say hanging upside down with any diversion would present a risk. Even with a native bladder if done for any length of time. Would not recommend it.

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