CIS diagnosis, Stage, Grade and treatment

1 Recommendation

I thought it might be useful to raise some diagnosis and treatment issues I'm trying to find answers for.

Regarding diagnosis, as I posted in another discussion, I think testing for abnormal cells in urine, as well as several other promising tests reported on in this website (BCAN), ought to be standard.

It took a couple of months, and symptoms of excruciating pain felt in the tip of my penis after voiding, as well as unmanageable urgency mistakenly treated as UTI (urinary tract infection), before I was referred to a urological nurse practicioner, who had the good sense to give me a test for abnormal cells. The particular symptoms were brought on evidently by eating ice cream and other rich foods (that also brought on gout), but the presumption is that I also had BC.

All the important information (=details) I've acquired about Stage, Grade and recurrence have come from BCAN and BCWebcafe.org.

My urologist and the National Institutes of Health and American Cancer Society (and other sources) did not provide the detailed information I needed to understand BC and treatment options.

My urologist said (over the phone--there was no printed material on Stage or Grade, even in the pathology report) that I had T0 (Transitional Cell Carcinoma in Situ, non-invasive) or Ta (Papillary tumors). Today, the nurse who administered my second BCG instillation gave me a pamphlet that listed three types of bladder cancer. The pamphlet also stated that one can have more than one kind. This was the first I had heard of this. Now that my urologist as returned (or will shortly) from vacation, I can resume asking him many questions, including how the Stage and Grade were determined, and how accurate they might be.

As for Grade, I think I've read that CIS is always considered 3, because of its reputation, but I sure would like to know if that was confirmed with a microscope.

As for treatment, on the BCwebcafe.org website, an article by Dr. Lamm states that his studies showed that one percutaneous (under the skin) application of BCG along with the usual 6-week instillation increased the success rate from 70% to 84%.

An article in the BCAN website states that a study showed that Mytomycin C administered with BCG was more effective than BCG alone.

Clinical trials have shown that a dye and light combination (phototherapy) are effective if BCG fails. I think one of these trials is going on now, in Buffalo, NY.

A 2005 study (reported in the BCAN network) showed that dye + fluorescent light during revealed more tumors and resulted in less recurrence than with white light. I intend to discuss these studies with my urologist. One would think every urologist knows about these studies.

13 replies

One would hope every urologist would know, but in fact in my 45 yrs as a nurse, I have found you get better care if YOU know. Ask pertinent questions, if the answers do not fit your research, consider another opinion. Difficult patients get better care
Nancy

Perhaps I missed info on a different thread but I don't see any diagnostic test here beyond the urine analysis. How can they tell you the stage (or even if it's malignant) without doing pathology on the abnormal tissue?

I know there are diff kinds of BC so perhaps you have something more easy to diagnose. But, I would have thought that a TURBT (removal via cystoscope, under anaesthetic), or other removal/biopsy technique would be required to extract tissue to be proper analyzed in the pathology lab, and this after a CT scan or (less accurate) ultrasound to determine the extent of the growth. No point them going in without a literal picture of what they are dealing with. All of this, the sooner the better.

If nothing else I would ask some qs to clarify their diagnosis and staging. BC is notorious for understaging, which can cause unwanted delays in getting the right prognosis and treatment - the sooner you get a clear picture of your situation, the sooner a proper treatment plan can be agreed between you and the treatment team.

Best of luck.

If it were me, I'd be going to an oncologist/urologist. In fact, that is what I did. If you think your doctor is short on info, or may not be in the know, or just doesn't have the inclination to discuss these kinds of subtle issues, you may be more comfortable with a second opinion. Best of luck...

The urologist took 4 biopsies, one from each wall (or 2 walls and 2 sides), including an inflamed area on the back wall and red dots that showed up when he distended the bladder with liquid. It was these biopsies that the pathology report said were CIS. The urologist had told me after he took the biopsies that he saw nothing to indicate cancer, and that he was sure the pathology report would be negative. When the report came back positive, he said he'd consult his colleague, who had administered the office cystoscopy and who had noticed the inflamed area. He also termed what I had "pre-cancer", which according to all I've read is a stretch, if not simply incorrect.

Thank you, yes, I received a second opinion from a medical oncologist in urology at Dana Farber; however, the only information came from the slides of the biopsies.

And thank you!

Thank you for the encouragement!

For what its worth, the urologist who did my first TURB, told me afterward that it didn't look like cancer. The report came back CIS. He then referred me to a specialist. The conclusion I draw from this is that a urologist is not necessarily qualified to treat bladder cancer.

As soon as i discovered i had bladder cancer, i made an appointment with an oncologist to discuss options. My Urologist was offended, but accepted that I wanted a second opinion. It has been routine that urologists, treat cancer, but it also appears that all are not up on what needs to occur or current standards. Urologists in general seem to me to be poor communicators and not very supportive. There are special ones who understand the impact of a cancer diagnosis, but they seem to be in the minority.
So do what you need too, don't be intimidated as you seek more information. It is the right thing to do

Nancy

Has anyone here ever gone to MD Anderson in Houston, TX? If so, what was your experience?

Jim, there are urologists and urologists. A general urologist sure is not qualified to treat cancer. When you get to an oncologist (surgeon or medical/chemo) specializing in urology, then you are where you need to be. If you can, find a cancer hospital or your best-regarded local cancer center and get them to review your case so far. Find a doc who has treated people with your diagnosis a hundred times, if you can. Take the guesswork out of the picture (as much as possible) asap. All the best.

Mike - I was in Sloan Kettering in NYC yesterday for ongoing post-op chemo, and heard someone on staff comment that MD Anderson is now #1 in the country. I am totally happy at MSK (still #2 and close to my home), but that's a recommendation I would trust.

Hi Jim, I just did an internet search and came up with the following info. U.S. New and World Report, Sept. 8, 2008 rated US cancer hospitals. MD Anderson was first, but Dana Farber Institute was 5th and Mass. General was 7th. I don't know how they rate re: bladder cancer specifically, but I was very surprised to see them listed just after John Hopkins and Mayo Clinic. I've heard many recommendatons for MD Anderson, Sloan Kettering, Cleveland Clinic and UCLA Norris for surgery but it looks like you're in a good place for now and hopefully forever!

I had multiple Stage 1, Grade 3 tumors and CIS. I haven't heard of using BCG unless someone has a G3 tumor or CIS. With lower grades they usually use chemo injections into the bladder. Mine was straight BCG without the options you have researched. Now I would know to demand the best.

One thing I was not told to do is that you should change your position while the BCG is in your bladdder - lie on your stomach, back, and sides so all areas of your bladder get the full benefit of the treatment. The BCG (6 treatments) did however get rid of my CIS but not all of my T1 tumors.

Good luck with the treatments.Go back with a long list of questions, demand answers, and yes, find and stick with a urinary oncologist. (I found it helpful to have someone go with me when I had a lot of questions because I always missed something important - do you think stress had anything to do with that? Kathy)

On this subject I would like to add that our first diagnosis was with our urologist,he preformed the first turbt,,,,after finding invasive b/c his office called the Cleveland Clinic , SECOND OPINION,,,,,ALWAYS ALWAYS GET A SECOND OPINION,,,a second turbt was done and the diagnosis was confirmed to be the same,,stage 3 muscle invasive...surgery followed...
it is very important when going to the er with what may be a bladder infection,can actually be b/c,, testing for this has to be more standard,many go on a anti-biotic, and end up later with urinating solid blood,,
therefore its imperative the word gets out,,,don't let them pass it off,get tested for b/c,it will save lives...
Md Anderson is one of the top hospitals for surgery for an r/c,to answer the question above......
ginger

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