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Are Others Ignorant ..... or simply uncaring?

FLiceman
  • By FLiceman
  • Posted June 4, 2009 at 11:27 am · 21 replies
  • Shared with the public
1 Recommendation

...... How interesting it can be when I speak to others on why I am not coming in to work today. I work for a very large telecommunications company which has home phone service, and fiber optics television and internet service. We have (probably) over 500 people in my building alone, that do a job the same as/similar to mine. Thus, if I cannot come in .... there is very little impact on the business.
..... Today, when I called in sick, using my FMLA (Federal Protected Medical Leave) ... I had TWO top level managers that I needed to explain that I am in too much pain, did not get much/any sleep, and am too medicated to drive to work. This is why I have FML. By federal law, it is illegal for management to question me when I advise I am not coming in due to "sick-FML" (I ONLY need to use those two words).
..... Since I am in a union protected work place; the managers violated the Union Contract by questioning me without allowing a Union Steward present.
..... Since I told them I am "sick FML" ... this should have ended the conversation. It did not.
.... One of the managers .... stepped beyond the scope of his job ... and decided to give me me medical advice, and suggest that I take one half a pain pill, to see if that will make the pain subside, and allow me to work. He did suggest that I consult my doctor, on his advice.
..... Ok ... sure. My doctor has a medical degree. My Neurologist has a medical degree. My Neurosurgeon has a medical degree as well.
..... I have NF1. I have THOUSANDS OF TUMORS ON MY SPINAL NERVES. They pinch other nerves (sciatiac). Cause pain in head, severe in low back, bottocks, legs. I work OVER 92 percent of my scheduled hours and 100 percent of the required overtime.
---- sure ... screw it. Take an asprin and get to work?
..... Now I am supposed to ask all three of them; if they think I should disreguard their advice and treatment; in order to follow a manager's advice from my work place.
..... Damn ..... now I need to file a grievience with my Union. The Attendance Manager is giving me medical advice.
..... Is this Ignorance? Is this stupidity? Both?

Explore topics in this journal entry and replies:

Exercise Surgery Chronic pain Adoption Back pain Pregnancy Diabetes Pain Stress

21 replies

dmarvelous

Both! I don't guess you've ever read any of my opinions on management,huh? Look on the bright side...at least, you got union! Most of us are just them against us! The retail store that I USED (lordy, that still sounds good) to work in did that alllll the time. It's their favorite hobby...laying the guilt on employees! Teach them what for! I'm on your side!
Deb

green_mnm

Per Federal law, employers are allowed to request documentation (so proof i guess) for forceable leaves.

Of course, in your case, it wasn't and it'd be considered intermittent leave under FLMA, which as far as I know require 'notice' and depending on the employer, since they are allowed to ask for medical documentation that could mean they can ask.

I don't think the 'medical advice' was ignorant or stupid, just something people do sometimes to try to relate or connect to you.

You don't have to take it. simple as that.

maxine10

Do not beat yourself up over having to call in sick you had a valid reason and your medic specialists can all back you up. please try and not worry and just take it easy and try to get better bye for now maxine xx

grigsbymomof2

I used to work for hilton central 600 plus employees, i was in the top 5% int he company there for I got top choice schedule's and so fourth, worked there for two years w/ no time off or calling in//fmla. But when i put my kid in daycare she kept egtting staff infections and te 2nd time(a month apart) I had to take of my manager told me if I took one more day off i'd be fired. So yea they have no hearts and I was at that time a single parents, didn''t get gov help and no child support. Wonder how I felt. Needless to say i'll never work for another call center I thought about a cable/phone and int center like yours or the insurance one right accross the street but no thanks. Allthough pay is good and vacation was 4wks a yr. But for what?

shortstuff

idk but the way things have been goin i wouldnt put more thn i had to on my grievance papers when you file them.Unions arent as strong as they used to be.

FLiceman

... actually, per federal FML law, employer CANNOT ask ANY questions, nor request documentation, nor request a doctor note.
... FML Laws are written to protect the employee, and keep the nature of the illness/injury PRIVATE. My employer is not to know ANYTHING about WHY I am calling in; other than :FML, sick. Period.
... The way the law is written, the employee (in this case, me) MUST have a very detailed FML form filled out by their doctor which describes the illness or condintion. Also; how the employee will take the days off, and how many (consecutive or intermittant).
... The employer has a independent medical expert (doctors or nurses) review the forms. They may, at THIS time, request more details or proof of condintion.
... This information goes to the independent doctor or nurse ... NOT to management.... Once approved by the employer's independent doctor or nurse, the absent time is approved... as long as the employee is calling in sick/FML within the condintions of that preapproved case number.
... Therefore, any manager who is asking the employee for details, or proof of ANY kind ... is a violation of federal law, and the manager can be in a great deal of trouble. This includes ... managers who ask 'innocent' questions, that induce the employee to feel "any discomfort in relation to their medical condintion, or the need to not to report to work due to that medical condintion".
-- I suggest if you are an employer, you review the FML law in more detail. You will lose your job, and will face some serious fines and may also face civil lawsuits.
... You may be thinking of non-FMLA related illnesses or employee call ins. In this case, you are correct.
... Since FML is preapproved absences ... by doctors or nurses; management has NO authority, nor the proper medical training to make decisions that can override the preapproved decision of the medical expert.

Mike

FLiceman

I will be checking out your journals shortly. Have been busy working, or trying to rest ... and neglecting doing research, and reading up on other's journals. Thanks for reading, and I will be reading yours soon. Mike

FLiceman

Our Union, in Florida is pretty pathetic. The only reason that I have not hired a lawyer yet (discrimination against a disabled person, failure to accomidate special needs of a disabled person in the work place, failure to make a reasonable attempt to reclassify a disabled person into a job classification that is more suited to their handicap, intentional infliction of emotional and physical pain by putting me on a 2 year probation for violating a 'rule' that is not written anywhere in the Code of Conduct<our rule book> ... and probable more)
... Additionally, the Corporate Policy requires that all employees be trained on that Code of Conduct each year. Well ... I have a printout of my training for the past ten years. Neither of the last 2 was I trained on that Code of Conduct.
... Therefore, I was written up, put on 2 year probation, for violating a rule that management says is in the rule book (it is not- I have a copy of that too). Even if I am wrong, and it IS a violation in the book ... I was not trained on that rule book. Therefore, per company policy, I cannot be held responsible.
... Yet ... still I am on probation.
--- No attorney YET, as I am hoping a change in union leadership will happen. I hope to avoid embarrassing my company. I hope to take care of it without legal help.
... My present union steward, said NOTHING during my grievance meeting. not a word. Not one.
Mike

Nan

Ignorance, mostly, is my bet. It is my understanding that, for management who are acquainted with FMLA provisions, it's the fear of what a violation report would cost the organization keeps them pretty much in line.

Oddly, in my (very large) organization few people understand FMLA. ~I'M~ the one in my department who's supposed to handle the paperwork, and I have been trying for six months to get training on how to handle it. Nobody can seem to provide that - the group of employees I would deal with has provisions for leaves that vastly outstrip the provisions of FMLA.

Given the info I ~do~ have, if you asked for FMLA and plan it as a paid leave, they can ask you questions to make sure the leave is in accordance with their normal paid leave provisions. I haven't seen anything that says they can't ask you any questions by reason of Federal law prohibiting it. (Perhaps it's a union reg? ) They ~can~ ask for periodic recertification of the condition that triggered the FMLA. How often, I don't know. As I said, I don't have much training.

Employers, in my experience, will push the line as far as they can to get the most return for the investment they make in their employees. Employee welfare is of concern only as far as it relates to the profit margin.

This is what I have to go by:

Basic Leave Entitlement
FMLA requires covered employers to provide up to 12 weeks of unpaid, job-protected leave to eligible employees for the following reasons:
• For incapacity due to pregnancy, prenatal medical care or child birth;
• To care for the employee’s child after birth, or placement for adoption or foster care;
• To care for the employee’s spouse, son or daughter, or parent, who has a serious health condition; or
• For a serious health condition that makes the employee unable to perform the employee’s job.

Benefits and Protections
During FMLA leave, the employer must maintain the employee’s health coverage under any “group health plan” on the same terms as if the employee had continued to work. Upon return from FMLA leave, most employees must be restored to their original or equivalent positions with equivalent pay, benefits, and other employment terms. Use of FMLA leave cannot result in the loss of any employment benefit that accrued prior to the start of an employee’s leave.

Eligibility Requirements
Employees are eligible if they have worked for a covered employer for at least one year, for 1,250 hours over the previous 12 months, and if at least 50 employees are employed by the employer within 75 miles.

Definition of Serious Health Condition
A serious health condition is an illness, injury, impairment, or physical or mental condition that involves either an overnight stay in a medical care facility, or continuing treatment by a health care provider for a condition that either prevents the employee from performing the functions of the employee’s job, or prevents the qualified family member from participating in school or other daily activities.

Subject to certain conditions, the continuing treatment requirement may be met by a period of incapacity of more than 3 consecutive calendar days combined with at least two visits to a health care provider or one visit and a regimen of continuing treatment, or incapacity due to pregnancy, or incapacity due to a chronic condition. Other conditions may meet the definition of continuing treatment.

Use of Leave
An employee does not need to use this leave entitlement in one block. Leave can be taken intermittently or on a reduced leave schedule when medically necessary. Employees must make reasonable efforts to schedule leave for planned medical treatment so as not to unduly disrupt the employer’s operations. Leave due to qualifying exigencies may also be taken on an intermittent basis.

Substitution of Paid Leave for Unpaid Leave
Employees may choose or employers may require use of accrued paid leave while taking FMLA leave. In order to use paid leave for FMLA leave, employees must comply with the employer’s normal paid leave policies.

Employee Responsibilities
Employees must provide 30 days advance notice of the need to take FMLA leave when the need is foreseeable. When 30 days notice is not possible, the employee must provide notice as soon as practicable and generally must comply with an employer’s normal call-in procedures.

Employees must provide sufficient information for the employer to determine if the leave may qualify for FMLA protection and the anticipated timing and duration of the leave. Sufficient information may include that the employee is unable to perform job functions, the family member is unable to perform daily activities, the need for hospitalization or continuing treatment by a health care provider, or circumstances supporting the need for military family leave. Employees also must inform the employer if the requested leave is for a reason for which FMLA leave was previously taken or certified. Employees also may be required to provide a certification and periodic recertification supporting the need for leave.

Employer Responsibilities
Covered employers must inform employees requesting leave whether they are eligible under FMLA. If they are, the notice must specify any additional information required as well as the employees’ rights and responsibilities. If they are not eligible, the employer must provide a reason for the ineligibility.

Covered employers must inform employees if leave will be designated as FMLA-protected and the amount of leave counted against the employee’s leave entitlement. If the employer determines that the leave is not FMLA-protected, the employer must notify the employee.

Unlawful Acts by Employers
FMLA makes it unlawful for any employer to:
• Interfere with, restrain, or deny the exercise of any right provided under FMLA;
• Discharge or discriminate against any person for opposing any practice made unlawful by FMLA or for involvement in any proceeding under or relating to FMLA.

Enforcement
An employee may file a complaint with the U.S. Department of Labor or may bring a private lawsuit against an employer.
FMLA does not affect any Federal or State law prohibiting discrimination, or supersede any State or local law or collective bargaining agreement which provides greater family or medical leave rights.

FLiceman

Nan,
.... I am actually very well rehearsed on the law .. unfortunate for me, because what you printed, is on every FMLA form that I fill out.
.... You are correct; but only to a point. The employer MAY (and does) require the 'sufficient information'. This goes to a medical doctor or nurse for approval of the leave. Mine is intermittant, and it is approved for a specific # of incidents per month.
.... Where the employer is in violation of the law; is that the management is NOT permitted to question me when I call in, and inform them that I will not be in to work, using the preapproved FML case number.
.... As the law shows ... I must tell them it is leave under the preapproved case ... and that is the end of it.
.... I do NOT need to give ANY evidence, unless my leave exceeds that which was preapproved. Even then; I owe my management no explanation. Human Resources will send me a notice that I need my doctor(s) to recertify the time that I have used, that exceeds the preapproved time.
.... The employer is in violation of federal law, if they discriminate against the employee in any way, on FML use. This includes making the employee feel uncomfortable by questioning them on their medical reasons for calling in sick/FML.
.... It is also against federal law for the employer to make suggestions to the employee on how to take the medication that was prescribed by his/her doctors, so that the employee can work, instead of stay home.
(point of interest)- My condintion is permenent, and serious. It does affect my ability to do my job on an intermittent basis. It is preapproved for intermittent use. Therefore, when I call in, if I say I am sick- using FML/self, case # 1234 .... The manager that is taking my call ... may NOT ASK ANY QUESTIONS unless simply asking if I will be off all day, or coming in later in the day.
--- You are correct, it is about the employer getting the best value for their money. I truly do not care if I get paid ... but if in this instance, my union pays my short term disability. Therefore, it costs my company nothing, that I know of.
--- below are the key points that make it quite obvious that my company has violated the FML law. (note: I did grieve this line of questioning with my union steward. It was addressed. The offending HR manager admitted he stepped over the line with his line of questions (he claimed he wanted to know if I was coming in later in the day. He also admitted this is NOT what he asked). Additionally, he admitted his suggestions on my medication dosage, was outside the bounds as well.
• For a serious health condition that makes the employee unable to perform the employee’s job
-Employees must provide sufficient information for the employer to determine if the leave may qualify for FMLA protection and the anticipated timing and duration of the leave
- Employees also must inform the employer if the requested leave is for a reason for which FMLA leave was previously taken or certified
-Unlawful Acts by Employers
FMLA makes it unlawful for any employer to:
• Interfere with, restrain, or deny the exercise of any right provided under FMLA;
• Discharge or discriminate against any person for opposing any practice made unlawful by FMLA or for involvement in any proceeding under or relating to FMLA.

FLiceman

... All ... when a manager gives you medical advice ... that is fully intended to benefit only themselves (or the company) ...

THIS IS NOT ACCEPTABLE !!!!
THIS IS A VIOLATION OF FML LAW - IF IT MAKES YOU FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE FOR CALLING IN, AND USING THE FML LEAVE.
.... One respondent states it is not ignorant or stupid. In truth, it is BOTH. It is also ... ILLEGAL.
.... This is per Federal Law .. not my opinion/

Faynilla

holy crap.

people are plain ignorant AND not caring. corporate only looks out for the wallet and their bank.

you cannot let them get away with this. not only was it extremely rude to make you go through the stress of having to wait on the phone and explain to them why you are calling out-but it is none of (that guys) business. Especially if you have protection from a union and whatever FML is. ( i havent heard about it but it sounds like
a good idea) BUT them giving medical advice is absolutely rediculous. people have some nerve.

I would write a letter to the union and express your concern. what if people are listening to these guys because they are intimidated of their rank or paycheck. maybe the guys are letting their job security go to their head and giving people a hard time.

I wish you the best and I truly hope you have a pain free day tomorrow and always. I'm not familiar with your condition but I have had extreme back pain and I empathize with you. no one should have to feel pain and by you actually GOING to work 92% of the time, I admire you.

FLiceman

The statement on 'fire at will' state is false. FML is federally protected. This means that the federal law, overrides the state's "fire at will".
- I do admit that states like Florida, which is a 'right to work' (fire at will) ... make it easier for the companies to dodge the FML laws.
- It is still a violation of Federal Law to be terminated for causes that are protected under FML. This means I can file a Federal Civil Lawsuit, and Federal Criminal Complaint. Neither option will make a manager feel at ease, and neither option is defended by stating "it is a 'fire at will' state.

Ieva

I have heard something of a kind from surgeon to whom I complained of pains in my arm: he asked why the mankind has invented painkillers. Later it turned out vascular malformation induced venous thrombosis and necrosis. Well, it is certainly ignorance, but also mixed with intention to stay as ignorant as possible. At least regarding all kinds of diseases and people suffering from them. But as to the discrimination- here a good old diabetes is often enough to remain jobless, but nobody has been so successful as to prove it. Since lawyers are not particularly aware. And education is difficult, because most of the so called healthy plainly feel too nauseated.

shortstuff

See...this is why I suggested what I did.I used to work at a company tht was union too thats how i know.
i don t know why.but they arent as strong as they used to be.

harris003

I know it sounds crazy.....but maybe the manager was actually trying to help. I mean he has a job to do too. I know "union" I believe in them, but I think sometimes we can take thing like this too far. Sometimes we need to chuck things up to inconsiderate people that don't really understand our problem, instead of making a mountain out of a mole hill. Considering the fact that 3 well know icon's have died this week leaving countless families hurt and sad, doesn't this sound petty? I don't mean to be rude or uncaring. I feel for anybody that has a difficult time due to illness. I always say it is about perspective. At least you have a job to complain about.

Blaster

Several months ago I had surgery to remove a few tumors (one on my foot).
I needed about 2 weeks off to heal.
** Yes I informed my employer in advance (at least a month) **
I qualified for short term disability (STD), but I also was "required" by my employer to fill out the FMLA documents.
Because of some POOR communication by Human Resources, I did not sign up for 3 days vacation (or 3 sick days).
We must wait 3 days to qualify for STD, Perhaps I should say...the first 3 days STD are not paid (by) STD.
When I DID discover this, I requested to "use" (get paid for) the 3 vacation (or sick) days I would have used.
** Normally we must inform our supervisor within an hour of the beginning of the shift to use sick time and one week for vacation requests **
Fortunately my supervisor (and management / HR) approved.
*All I needed to do was explain the situation (in writing) and put my request in writing.*
The "back-pay" was included on a pay check about a month later.

One day I needed to stop by to check on the pay issue (with HR) my supervisor happened to pass through the office while I was there....
He asked how I was doing,... pain management, the healing going good, if I expected to return as scheduled or needed more time....
(actually we laughed a little about hobbling on crutches)
None of these questions were intimidating.

gtghawaii

First let me start out by saying I'm sorry you are in so much pain. I can imagine that dealing with people that are insensitive is difficult. People have a tendancy to minimize and fear what they do not understand or have experience with.

I've been on both sides of this issue in management as well as having a health condition. You are correct your employer is not supposed to ask you questions about your health condition. However, unless they make a negative employment decision based on the information they've solicited it really is not illegal. This is a grey area of the law because the need to communicate is simply human nature . If the law was inflexible then employers would lose the ability to empathize with employees as well. That is a bit like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

The next time your Supervisor asks you questions that you feel are of a personal nature, perhaps you should respond by educating them instead of being on the defensive. From my experience an open and honest attitude goes a long way in helping your employer understand your needs and willing to work with you instead of having a contentious relationship.

FLiceman

... gtghawaii ... very intelligent observation. Thanks for the input. My company, actually has a historic pattern of federal complaints on this, and similar issues. \
Where my personal concern is .... I am very well rehearsed on the laws on FMLA. I truly wish I wasn't; but I am.
My company attempts to get rid of employees who have tenure, of which I am over ten years ... and probably (a guess) number 25-30 in seniority out od maybe 550 employees.
The FMLA, means I miss work. This is unproductive time. I make more money than a new hire would make. My medical, may cost more as well ... as I think the new hires now pay a portion of their medical. Additionally, new hires will be paid at least $2 per hour less than me ... and earn less vacation for five years.
My company is using my missing work ... to pressure me into finding another job. I have little doubt that they cannot and will not fire me. I know this because if they do ... I have 100% evidence that the initial reason I am on a 2 year suspension is a false accusation.
Most important point: It is a violation of federal FML laws ... to intentionally make an employee feel uncomfortable in ANY WAY, when the employee needs to exercise their right, and use FML time off work. Even if a manager has good intentions on asking more detailed questions, or suggesting medical advise ... if this makes the employee feel discomfort in using their time off ... it is illegal.
In this particular instance, not only did the HR manager ask detailed questions and give unsolicited medical advice ... he ADMITTED that he stepped over the line when my union steward questioned him. In my opinion, he should have accepted the stewards scolding, or whatever she did; but without admitting wrong doing. Oops. More evidence for a civil lawsuit.

shortstuff

oh wow:(.Its so sad you have to go thru this as well as feeling awful.I know what chronic pain is about and its nerve wracking as idk what. I hope that you can get this settled soon as you shouldnt have to be upset like this,you should be resting.
Have you considered trying to fight for ssi or something? This is just awful and Im sorry your going thru this.

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